Virginia Redskins? Why we should care .....

[Mista T]

M&T Bank is still considered one of the best stadiums in the NFL, at least in the polls I've seen in the last year or two.

I don't agree that the polls in recent years rank our stadium facility as one of the best. Rather, these recent polls (that I read) focused on toughest place for opponents to play (we're #1!), gameday experience, crowd hostility, location (we're #2!), tailgating etc.

Our Camden Yards facility is now middle of the pack with peer stadiums built in the 90s such as Pitt, Philly, Cleveland, Foxboro, Seattle, Landover, Nashville, Charlotte. While we just had $35 million infused into our stadium for fluff stuff, many of the peer stadiums have major additions & renovations underway, such as additional seating in Pitt. It would be tough to argue that our stadium (or any of its peers) is comparable to recent palatial stadiums built or soon to be built, such as those in/near Phoenix, Dallas, Minneapolis, Atlanta, Santa Clara.

With the stadium-mania going on in the NFL, I could envision Bisciotti asking for a large taxpayer contribution to an overhaul a few years from now. I can't see him pulling a Danny Snyder move, i.e. leaving a cash-cow behind to somehow squeeze out a few more bucks in DC or Virginia..

[JohnBKistler]

JBK --

It's about profit maximization. As in any business, you don't wait until money is walking out of the door to fix it. By then, it's too late. You forecast future needs and act. Reacting is precisely the wrong thing to do.

I agree. My only point is that in the Baltimore market, the prime determination of generating revenue is the product on the field, not the stadium that surrounds the field. Bisciotti can most likely make more money by keeping his team competitive, and by upgrading the "old" stadium at pennies to the dollar on what it would cost to invest in a new one. Dollars (billions) that he would not have to spend on the team.

Why have only 20 suites when you can have a modern stadium with 40-50? Why have a jammed parking situation when you can have more parking and charge for it?

Is this Dan Snyder? By the way, if you do build "it", the "they" in "they will come" will be primarily coming from the DC area....and they will have their own Jerry-World in the next few years, too. Much closer than Baltimore.

And the most important why .... Why rent a stadium from the state that's only a viable venue part of the year when I can have my own with a retractable roof and make money year round?

True in theory. In practice, I don't think a year-round venue in Baltimore would garner the extra events that you seem to envision. How many Super Bowls were played in the old Lions' dome after it was built? How many in the new one? One so far...think they get a second one anytime soon?

[HoustonRaven]

Is this Dan Snyder? By the way, if you do build "it", the "they" in "they will come" will be primarily coming from the DC area....and they will have their own Jerry-World in the next few years, too. Much closer than Baltimore.

I never said we need palaces. But a stadium like Houston? Or the one going in Santa Clara? Sounds like great fits to me.

True in theory. In practice, I don't think a year-round venue in Baltimore would garner the extra events that you seem to envision. How many Super Bowls were played in the old Lions' dome after it was built?

Who said Super Bowl? I'm thinking EPL friendlies, concerts, etc that can now only happen in the warmer months.

I don't get the defeatist view of our beloved city. Stadiums are draws and if done right, cash cows.

Who would have thought we'd host a Grand Prix? The city is hosing that one up but it IS drawing people in. I see why events at a year round stadium wouldn't have similar success.

[JohnBKistler]

Who said Super Bowl? I'm thinking EPL friendlies, concerts, etc that can now only happen in the warmer months.

We don't live in the Arctic Circle. You can hosts events at M&T at least 9 months out of the year.

I don't get the defeatist view of our beloved city. Stadiums are draws and if done right, cash cows.

In theory, yes. But again, 2 points:

"Done right" needs to mean that Bisciotti is footing the bill. And that means in the short term, any money he spends on the stadium, he is not spending on the team. Long-term, if he generates the IRR he desires, sure, the team could benefit by having more cash.

Which leads me to my second point....

Who would have thought we'd host a Grand Prix? The city is hosing that one up but it IS drawing people in. I see why events at a year round stadium wouldn't have similar success.

You mean this one?

http://www.foxbaltimore.com/news/fea...l#.UhT3C5K1E30

The city spent millions of taxpayer dollars, it shuts the business center of Baltimore down for days (at what cost, who knows)...this is not the event I would be using to proclaim Baltimore as the destination city you seem to imply.

I love Baltimore. But given the choices of Baltimore vs. Miami, New Orleans, Dallas, Phoenix, Santa Clara (San Francisco), even DC (when Danny-world comes on-line...and you know it's coming), it just can't compete. Nor should it try.

[RavenScallywag]

One interesting thing about age of stadiums...

16 of the current NFL stadiums were opened between 1995 and 2003.

Jacksonville and St. Louis in 1995
Charlotte in 1996
Washington in 1997
Baltimore and Tampa Bay in 1998
Cleveland and Tennessee in 1999
Cincinnatti in 2000
Denver and Pittsburgh in 2001
Houston, New England, Seattle, and Detroit in 2002
Philadelphia in 2003

Since then...just 4 stadiums.

[GirlsKickButt]

Escalators
Elevators
More Club / Suite Seating
Retractable Roof (which makes the stadium a year round venue)
More Restrooms
Better / More Concessions
Concourse Views

I can keep going. These are all thing that modern stadia have that M&T doesn't.

You and others may disagree that we do not *need* a new stadium. I am arguing that Bisciotti is and should be thinking about it. Slight difference.

And if Bisciotti spends his own money on the new digs, why does the price tag matter? I don't think we can / should assume public money would be used given his means.

M&T has elevators, plenty of club seating and the concessions were part of the upgrade. Concourse views? A stadium isn't a hotel room. As for the roof, it's an outdoor sport not an indoor one. If you are cold and wet, then you didn't plan/dress appropriately for the game.

While I agree with the escalators, they come with liability which is why I'm sure they aren't there already.

I've been to 7 other stadiums, including Houston, and while they may have a few amenities that are better/different, overall NONE of them are as good as M&T.

[HoustonRaven]

We don't live in the Arctic Circle. You can hosts events at M&T at least 9 months out of the year.

Again with the extremes? ;)

I never made such a claim and you made my point for me.

Any savvy, smart business owner (and I am confident we have one) would / should jump at the chance to add what amounts to an entire fiscal quarter to their potential profits.

"Done right" needs to mean that Bisciotti is footing the bill. And that means in the short term, any money he spends on the stadium, he is not spending on the team. Long-term, if he generates the IRR he desires, sure, the team could benefit by having more cash.

He's a billionaire. I think he can fiscally "chew gum and walk" at the same time. The notion that the team would lose potential dollars rings very hollow to me.

Which leads me to my second point....

You mean this one?

Yes, that very one. If you sell widgets, and everyone under the sun buys them but you messed the back end up by making bad money deals and doesn't mean you didn't have a successful widget. It means you're shitty with money.

The Grand Prix is a tremendous success for local business. As I acknowledged, the city is the one screwing that up. And the overall point is people DO come to the city and it IS a draw. It's not like Baltimore is a hot bed for open wheel racing yet 100,000 people showed up and spent money.

[HoustonRaven]

M&T has elevators, plenty of club seating and the concessions were part of the upgrade. Concourse views? A stadium isn't a hotel room. As for the roof, it's an outdoor sport not an indoor one. If you are cold and wet, then you didn't plan/dress appropriately for the game.

While I agree with the escalators, they come with liability which is why I'm sure they aren't there already.

I've been to 7 other stadiums, including Houston, and while they may have a few amenities that are better/different, overall NONE of them are as good as M&T.

Agree to disagree.

Houston is head and shoulders above M&T in terms of a facility, IMO.

[JohnBKistler]

Again with the extremes? ;)

I never made such a claim and you made my point for me.

Any savvy, smart business owner (and I am confident we have one) would / should jump at the chance to add what amounts to an entire fiscal quarter to their potential profits.

Extremes. You are in fact missing the point. If there was no stadium in Baltimore currently, you could make a more reasoned argument for a dome/retractable roof: We currently can't host ANY events during the year, this would give us the ability to host them 12 months a year. But that is not the argument you have to make.

The one you are trying to make is: We can't host events December-February. We need an entirely new stadium to fill the gap. Yes, any business would jump at the chance to add a quarter's worth of revenue. But the first question they would ask before leaping is, "At what cost?"

He's a billionaire. I think he can fiscally "chew gum and walk" at the same time. The notion that the team would lose potential dollars rings very hollow to me.

He's a billionaire. Not a the Federal Reserve that can print money. If he spends it on the stadium, he can't spend or invest it elsewhere.

I think he understands this very, very well. He inherited 2 major pieces of infrastructure when he bought the team: the stadium and the practice facility. I think it speaks volumes about how he viewed their competitive value when he replaced one and upgraded the other.

Yes, that very one. If you sell widgets, and everyone under the sun buys them but you messed the back end up by making bad money deals and doesn't mean you didn't have a successful widget. It means you're shitty with money.

The Grand Prix is a tremendous success for local business. As I acknowledged, the city is the one screwing that up. And the overall point is people DO come to the city and it IS a draw. It's not like Baltimore is a hot bed for open wheel racing yet 100,000 people showed up and spent money.

Have you done any research on this, or are you just guessing this is the case?

http://www.foxbaltimore.com/news/fea...l#.UhUCspK1E30

I personally know someone who's business signed up to support the inaugural race. When the first sponsor went bankrupt (I believe they are on sponsor #3), many businesses that sponsored the race lost money.

Even the city admits it is losing money but that it should be looked at as in "investment" that will eventually pay-off for the Baltimore businesses. Of course, the city government took precautions against their immediate loses by adding a $3 surcharge to every ticket. Too bad the businesses don't have the same option.

[GirlsKickButt]

Agree to disagree.

Houston is head and shoulders above M&T in terms of a facility, IMO.

Not to me. There was no SAFE/security at all. The upper deck was too far from the field and took forever to get there, the concourses were more narrow than M&T, the stadium was architectually ugly and the sound system/video boards were inferior.

I did like the flooring (some type of non-slip substance) and the dome was nice (but again, it didn't feel like a football game). But, overall, I'll take M&T.

[HoustonRaven]

Extremes. You are in fact missing the point. If there was no stadium in Baltimore currently, you could make a more reasoned argument for a dome/retractable roof: We currently can't host ANY events during the year, this would give us the ability to host them 12 months a year. But that is not the argument you have to make.

The one you are trying to make is: We can't host events December-February. We need an entirely new stadium to fill the gap. Yes, any business would jump at the chance to add a quarter's worth of revenue. But the first question they would ask before leaping is, "At what cost?"

Ok. I don't see your point because I think your premise is bad. Of course there's a "at what cost". That's not as big a hurdle as you make it out to be. It's step one of a 100 step process, one I am more than willing to believe Bisciotti would not back down from. Not even close.

He's a billionaire. Not a the Federal Reserve that can print money. If he spends it on the stadium, he can't spend or invest it elsewhere.

I think he understands this very, very well. He inherited 2 major pieces of infrastructure when he bought the team: the stadium and the practice facility. I think it speaks volumes about how he viewed their competitive value when he replaced one and upgraded the other.

He didn't inherit a thing. Snyder inherited FedEx. Bisciotti is renting from the city so neither the stadium or the infrastructure is his.

Have you done any research on this, or are you just guessing this is the case?

http://www.foxbaltimore.com/news/fea...l#.UhUCspK1E30

I personally know someone who's business signed up to support the inaugural race. When the first sponsor went bankrupt (I believe they are on sponsor #3), many businesses that sponsored the race lost money.

Even the city admits it is losing money but that it should be looked at as in "investment" that will eventually pay-off for the Baltimore business. Of course, the city government took precautions against their loses by adding a $3 surcharge to every ticket.

You're talking a again about race sponsors. I am talking about local shops and businesses. Yes, the city dicked that one up. No question. Again, it doesn't mean it's not a draw.

130,000 showed up to a city you claim doesn't draw people. And stayed for three days I might add.

Yes, I've done research on this past the anecdotal handful of businesses (i.e one from the article) that claim they lose money ....

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore....html?page=all

You know what Zelda Zen is? It's a boutique jewelery store about the size of my linen closet. It's failure to find a way to make a profit is the exception, not the rule. The city generated $40+ Million last year in business dollars. Not too bad for a town that doesn't draw people. Sounds to me the problem isn't the event. It's the coffers who are managing the money on the back side.

I know many owners of bars / restaurants / shops in the Harbor and Fells and they have been salivating since the GP came. The foot traffic they get is a huge boon for them.

And as your article points out, the city is working on the accessibility issue.

[JohnBKistler]

You're talking a again about race sponsors. I am talking about local shops and businesses. Yes, the city dicked that one up. No question. Again, it doesn't mean it's not a draw.

130,000 showed up to a city you claim doesn't draw people. And stayed for three days I might add.

They don't release attendance figures, so I am not sure where you are getting your info.

Yes, I've done research on this past the anecdotal handful of businesses (i.e one from the article) that claim they lose money ....

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore....html?page=all

A study commissioned by the race sponsor showed a positive economic impact. Really? Wow, whodathunkit?

Here's a more recent Bal Biz Journal article. The race organizers admit that instead of "salivating", Baltimore business are wary.

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore....html?page=all