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  1. #76

    Re: Boldin Replaced by Durmervil and Huff?



    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    The bottom line is and always has been, we had a lot more flexibility than many people are implying. It comes down to differing opinions as to the relative value of the players, Boldin, McClain, Spears, Dumervil, etc. That is all it comes down to. I understand your descsiption of Ozzie's thinking, but it cannot be qualified as "the only way we end up with X, Y, Z" is to trade Boldin. That is the only thing I am arguing about. That argument/implication.
    OK, well, I'm certainly not saying it was the only way nor do I think Ozzie was either.

    I do think, however, that when you are tight against the Cap and looking to create a decent amount of Cap space, most FO's are going to look to find it in a single spot, if possible (and ideally a guy in the last year of his contract, because there's less dead money to eat into the savings). That, unfortunately, likely means a better player, because releasing a bunch of lesser players just means more and more players that you've got to release because the net savings just isn't that big.

    That's why it was Boldin this year and that's why I mentioned Suggs as a possibility next year. It's the biggest single place to find Cap savings, without having to release a bunch of guys to create that much space.
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  2. #77

    Re: Boldin Replaced by Durmervil and Huff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker: M&T Sec 527 View Post
    The bills weren't marked. I'm not sure we can identify exactly where Q's $6 mil went.
    Totally agree and have basically been saying that (or been trying to say that).
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

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  3. #78

    Re: Boldin Replaced by Durmervil and Huff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Even if McClain was going to start, I don't think an ILB on a team deep in LBs is as valuable as very productive (under Caldwell) WR on a team shallow in WRs.
    Well, the depth at the time was McClain, Bynes and McClellan. We knew they were going to draft a LB, but that was it.

    IMO, McClain has very solid years in 2010 and 2011. Neither Bynes nor McClellan, granted in small samples, having come close to showing that they could put together years as good.

    Lastly, they did try to re-sign Ellerbe (which if they had stuck to their guns would probably have meant no Dumervil, given the years and price of those deals), in which case, I think they may have released McClain, but I really didn't think they were going to go into the draft without at least one true starter quality guy at ILB, which I don't think Bynes or McClellan are yet. Given that they've kept McClain, drafted Brown and signed Smith, I don't think the Ravens think so either.
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

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  4. #79

    Re: Boldin Replaced by Durmervil and Huff?

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    OK, well, I'm certainly not saying it was the only way nor do I think Ozzie was either.

    I do think, however, that when you are tight against the Cap and looking to create a decent amount of Cap space, most FO's are going to look to find it in a single spot, if possible (and ideally a guy in the last year of his contract, because there's less dead money to eat into the savings). That, unfortunately, likely means a better player, because releasing a bunch of lesser players just means more and more players that you've got to release because the net savings just isn't that big.

    That's why it was Boldin this year and that's why I mentioned Suggs as a possibility next year. It's the biggest single place to find Cap savings, without having to release a bunch of guys to create that much space.
    It certainly won't be Ngata. He's a $16mil hit next year, but they would only save a whopping $1mil if they cut him.

    The missing piece to the puzzle is how much the cap will be raised next year. I don't think it will be much.
    Last edited by Money227; 08-13-2013 at 05:07 PM.




  5. #80

    Re: Boldin Replaced by Durmervil and Huff?

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    Well, the depth at the time was McClain, Bynes and McClellan. We knew they were going to draft a LB, but that was it.

    IMO, McClain has very solid years in 2010 and 2011. Neither Bynes nor McClellan, granted in small samples, having come close to showing that they could put together years as good.

    Lastly, they did try to re-sign Ellerbe (which if they had stuck to their guns would probably have meant no Dumervil, given the years and price of those deals), in which case, I think they may have released McClain, but I really didn't think they were going to go into the draft without at least one true starter quality guy at ILB, which I don't think Bynes or McClellan are yet. Given that they've kept McClain, drafted Brown and signed Smith, I don't think the Ravens think so either.
    I think ILB is one of the least important positions there is, on either side of the ball. The relative weight of the position itself lessens the impact of possible moderate 'gains' at the spot, imo.

    And I also don't think the difference between McClain and Bynes or McClellan would not be all that big. Or even really the difference between Smith and Bynes/McClellan/Brown, or any other vet minimum FA (like a Nick Barnett).

    You can take the same argument and apply it to WR, i.e. depth, who is going to start, etc., and WR is more important than ILB, imo.

    I am not saying Ozzie's thinking was foolish. I also don't think he took the decision to trade Boldin lightly, he did try to keep him for a bit cheaper after all. I am just addressing the constant meme that if we had kept Boldin we would have had to stand pat after that.




  6. #81

    Re: Boldin Replaced by Durmervil and Huff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    I think ILB is one of the least important positions there is, on either side of the ball. The relative weight of the position itself lessens the impact of possible moderate 'gains' at the spot, imo.

    And I also don't think the difference between McClain and Bynes or McClellan would not be all that big. Or even really the difference between Smith and Bynes/McClellan/Brown, or any other vet minimum FA (like a Nick Barnett).

    You can take the same argument and apply it to WR, i.e. depth, who is going to start, etc., and WR is more important than ILB, imo.

    I am not saying Ozzie's thinking was foolish. I also don't think he took the decision to trade Boldin lightly, he did try to keep him for a bit cheaper after all. I am just addressing the constant meme that if we had kept Boldin we would have had to stand pat after that.
    As long as he stays healthy, Smith is going to make a huge contribution to this year's team. He is the perfect example why Ozzie didn't budge on the $2mil difference with Boldin. As far as comparing the positions. I wonder if you look at the top 10 ILBs and then top 10 WRs and what teams they are on...which teams were more successful last year?




  7. #82

    Re: Boldin Replaced by Durmervil and Huff?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    Brandon Stokely can give you the regular season production that Boldin gave you, especially with Caldwell calling the plays, at a small fraction of the price.
    I admit Boldins regular season numbers was not that great but really?

    Only once did Stokley have a similar kind of production and even then he was a less factor than Boldin, and lets not forget that Stokley was playing with Peyton anno 2004.

    Stokley at 37 will not replace Boldin, and Caldwell may be a good playcaller.. this will be his first year as such.

    Btw not defending Boldins departure, I am ok with that. Still hoping that Deonte or Doss will step up.




  8. #83
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    Re: Boldin Replaced by Durmervil and Huff?

    Suggs looks great so far. If he has a great season, why wouldn't the Ravens just extend him to get cap relief next year? The reason I don't think they will extend Ngata is because he has talked about retiring in the next few years.




  9. #84
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    Re: Boldin Replaced by Durmervil and Huff?

    Quote Originally Posted by elland View Post
    I admit Boldins regular season numbers was not that great but really?

    Only once did Stokley have a similar kind of production and even then he was a less factor than Boldin, and lets not forget that Stokley was playing with Peyton anno 2004.

    Stokley at 37 will not replace Boldin, and Caldwell may be a good playcaller.. this will be his first year as such.

    Btw not defending Boldins departure, I am ok with that. Still hoping that Deonte or Doss will step up.
    It's the combo of Stokley and Clark that's going to replace Boldins production.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  10. #85

    Re: Boldin Replaced by Durmervil and Huff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Money227 View Post
    As long as he stays healthy, Smith is going to make a huge contribution to this year's team. He is the perfect example why Ozzie didn't budge on the $2mil difference with Boldin. As far as comparing the positions. I wonder if you look at the top 10 ILBs and then top 10 WRs and what teams they are on...which teams were more successful last year?
    I don't even know how to determine the top 10 ILBs, frankly. Nor am I sure it would make sense to compare the top 10 in each category if we could agree on the rankings (why not top 12 or top 16, etc.)

    I do know that WRs are paid more, despite there being more of them that see the field.

    I also know that in terms of our team, we have plugged in several UDFAs at ILB and had them play well, Bart Scott, McClain, Ellerbe, while having serious trouble finding good WRs, let alone finding them from the middle of the draft and later. I also think McClellan and Bynes looked fairly decent in their opportunities; obviously a bit raw here and there, but no red flags that indicate they cannot become serviceable to good starters.

    I also think it is much harder to win it all these days if you have a subpar offense than a subpar defense.

    And my assessment of the value of ILB as a position is obviously a relative one. Of course you want your ILBs to be the best they can be, and be good, etc., but not at the expense of pass rushers, imo, or coverage CBs, imo, or run-stuffing tackles, imo, or TE/WR covering safeties, imo. Or QB, or OL, or WR...maybe RB is a comparable position, where you are more likely to be able to plug in semi-average guys and not suffer a severe drop off like you might doing it at another position.

    As for Torrey, I hope you are right. But I think if he does not significantly become more productive it will be because other teams simply focus on him while ignoring our #2 and #3 WRs, since he is by far the most consistent, proven threat in our receiving corps. Obviously I hope Dallas Clark lights it up, Jacoby steps it up, and Stokley/Doss (whoever) moves the chains, but I don't think any of those, let alone all, are a given. Fingers crossed.




  11. #86

    Re: Boldin Replaced by Durmervil and Huff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    I don't even know how to determine the top 10 ILBs, frankly. Nor am I sure it would make sense to compare the top 10 in each category if we could agree on the rankings (why not top 12 or top 16, etc.)

    I do know that WRs are paid more, despite there being more of them that see the field.

    I also know that in terms of our team, we have plugged in several UDFAs at ILB and had them play well, Bart Scott, McClain, Ellerbe, while having serious trouble finding good WRs, let alone finding them from the middle of the draft and later. I also think McClellan and Bynes looked fairly decent in their opportunities; obviously a bit raw here and there, but no red flags that indicate they cannot become serviceable to good starters.

    I also think it is much harder to win it all these days if you have a subpar offense than a subpar defense.

    And my assessment of the value of ILB as a position is obviously a relative one. Of course you want your ILBs to be the best they can be, and be good, etc., but not at the expense of pass rushers, imo, or coverage CBs, imo, or run-stuffing tackles, imo, or TE/WR covering safeties, imo. Or QB, or OL, or WR...maybe RB is a comparable position, where you are more likely to be able to plug in semi-average guys and not suffer a severe drop off like you might doing it at another position.

    As for Torrey, I hope you are right. But I think if he does not significantly become more productive it will be because other teams simply focus on him while ignoring our #2 and #3 WRs, since he is by far the most consistent, proven threat in our receiving corps. Obviously I hope Dallas Clark lights it up, Jacoby steps it up, and Stokley/Doss (whoever) moves the chains, but I don't think any of those, let alone all, are a given. Fingers crossed.
    Sorry...I was talking about Daryl Smith and his importance to the team replacing Ray. I think his experience and leadership will help ease the transition at that position. He's also still a pretty damn good player when healthy. I hear you about who we've plugged and played at ILB, but they've all had the luxury of playing next to Ray.

    I did my own "semi" comparison and it's pretty much a wash. You have guys like C. Johnson, Marshall, Vincent Jackson and Dez Bryant who have yet to get their teams over the top. The Texans and Bengals have certainly had some success with A. Johnson and Green, but haven't made a serious run. You can pretty much say the same with Atlanta and White and Jones.

    On the flip side, the ILBs are a little more subjective, but you have guys like Daryl Washington, Derrick Johnson, Sean Lee and Laurinaitis whose teams haven't had success.

    You make a good point about the pay grade of positions though.

    It's just all going to have to play out and Flacco will actually have a huge role in the outcome of the decision.




  12. #87

    Re: Boldin Replaced by Durmervil and Huff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    Suggs looks great so far. If he has a great season, why wouldn't the Ravens just extend him to get cap relief next year? The reason I don't think they will extend Ngata is because he has talked about retiring in the next few years.
    Oh, an extension for Suggs is definitely a possibility, but he's going to have to earn it. If he does, I don't doubt they will look to extend him and reduce that 2014 Cap number.

    If he doesn't, IMO, there's definitely a possibility that he's not back.

    I was only saying that either way, I don't think he's playing here next year under the present terms of his deal. As I said, I think he realizes that too. It's almost akin to his being a FA year for him in that he's playing to earn his next deal.
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

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