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  1. #16

    Re: Bradley Manning Verdict



    Quote Originally Posted by Dade View Post
    I think most people don't realize that when you join the military you give up alot of your rights, biggest being freedom of speech.
    How does that square with an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States."?




  2. #17

    Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

    If he was so outraged, he could have just quit and spoken out against it, taken the information to a friendly Senator or Congressman, etc. Instead, he willfully violated his oath over and over again. Sounds incredibly selfish to me and he deserved what he got, though he should have been executed IMO.
    There have been numerous cases in the past 10 years of people trying to do this the so-called "right way" and they have been threatened by the full force of the US Justice Dept. - both Bush's and Obama's. Ironically, it has been Obama, he of the "most transparent presidency ever", that has been the most ruthless in dealing with whistle-blowers. Most were professionally and financially ruined. Not exactly a lot of incentive their to do it your way.




  3. #18
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    Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    How does that square with an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States."?
    Support and Defend =/= Interpret and Act when you enlist.

    Dade is 100% correct. A military contract is basically a waiver of your Constitutional rights. You're military property at that point, irrelevant of your personal opinions. You're expected and agree to the orders given by those in your chain of command. A soldier, by definition and under their voluntary contract, cannot interpret what is and isn't constitutional.

    There's a legal and ethical process in place if the military / country is doing something that doesn't confirm with your ethics and he ignored that process in favor of making it no longer about whatever outrage was occurring, favoring a action that made it about him personally.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  4. #19
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    Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    There have been numerous cases in the past 10 years of people trying to do this the so-called "right way" and they have been threatened by the full force of the US Justice Dept. - both Bush's and Obama's. Ironically, it has been Obama, he of the "most transparent presidency ever", that has been the most ruthless in dealing with whistle-blowers. Most were professionally and financially ruined. Not exactly a lot of incentive their to do it your way.
    Case such as?

    I doubt they were similar to this case.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  5. #20

    Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Case such as?

    I doubt they were similar to this case.
    Here's one...this one doesn't deal with national security secrets, but it is symbolic of how the Obama Administration handles whistleblowers. I will go find some more...just a few...

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...677_story.html

    Here's another that talks about many of these people...many of them tried to "do it the right way"...it is easy to see why some may choose the way that Snowden or Manning did.

    http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...cy-apple-store

    Here's another that talks about the misleading protections that the Obama administration has claimed are there for whistleblowers to "do it the right way."

    http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...licy-directive

    To be clear, I am not in favor of the way Manning exposed what he thought were government misdeeds: dumping documents and files on to WikiLeaks indiscriminately certainly may have endangered lives.

    Snowden on the other hand seemed to be more discriminating in the information he released, and contrary to government claims, no one has been able to make the case he directly but anyone's life in danger.

    But if all whistleblowers are treated the same, with the full force of the US government (and their allies) trying to basically crush their lives, you certainly can't expect people to report abuses via the official channels and you can expect more of type of leaks like Snowden and Manning.
    Last edited by JohnBKistler; 08-22-2013 at 09:05 AM.




  6. #21
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    Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    How does that square with an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States."?
    Because you're defending it for everyone else, not necessarily yourself. When you swear in, you are swearing to abide by the orders of those appointed over you. When you wear the uniform, you can't just do whatever you want and call it "Freedom of Speech".

    Sailor's Creed:
    I am a United States Sailor.
    I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America and I will obey the orders of those appointed over me.
    I represent the fighting spirit of the Navy and those who have gone before me to defend freedom and democracy around the world.
    I proudly serve my country's Navy combat team with Honor, Courage and Commitment.
    I am committed to excellence and the fair treatment of all.

    And the whole "giving up freedom of speech" thing is a little overblown. It is all about context.

    If you go to a rally or something that is controversial and you are active duty and wear your uniform, you are effectively representing the US Military. You'll get in trouble for that. Don't be dumb. If you think it will get you in trouble, it probably will.

    When I was in Penascola, we had a girl go to one of the local bars (won't name the name of the bar...but if you've been to Pensacola, you know what I'm talking about) and decided to participate in their wet t-shirt contest...she was wearing a command hat and someone video taped it, posted it on Facebook saying something like "Hey look! Navy girls showing it off!". Long and short, she got in trouble for it and went to a DRB and almost went to Captain's Mast (Article 15 for all you weirdo non-Navy folk ).
    Last edited by wickedsolo; 08-22-2013 at 09:04 AM.
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  7. #22

    Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Because you're defending it for everyone else, not necessarily yourself. When you swear in, you are swearing to abide by the orders of those appointed over you.
    So, if you are in the military, and you are given orders that you think go directly against the Constitution...do you "bear allegiance" to the officer(s) that have given you your orders, or to the Constitution you have sworn to defend?




  8. #23
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    Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    How does that square with an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States."?
    It's called military expression. The Supreme Court has ruled that while service members have the right to free speech it is a limited right. Whistleblowing and publicly supporting a candidate or political party is prohibted.

    There is a process for both enlisted and officers to legally and constitutionly whisteblow and become invovled in politics. Chief among them is if you disagree with a order from a superior officer or the President you can renounce your enlistment or commission. Manning did not follow any of this procedures.

    This is done to keep a clear line between the military and politics (i.e. government). Image if a 4 star General was able to express his political views publicly, or whisteblow some of the governments secrets. He/she could gain enough political captia to start a military-coup.




  9. #24
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    Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    So, if you are in the military, and you are given orders that you think go directly against the Constitution...do you "bear allegiance" to the officer(s) that have given you your orders, or to the Constitution you have sworn to defend?
    Any order that is unmoral or unconstitutional need not be follow. However like I said before there is a process to decline any order.

    I disobeyed several orders during my Air Force career. But I always did it properly.

    Oath of Service:
    "I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."




  10. #25
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    Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    So, if you are in the military, and you are given orders that you think go directly against the Constitution...do you "bear allegiance" to the officer(s) that have given you your orders, or to the Constitution you have sworn to defend?
    Yes. All the way up to and including the President.

    There's a process in place if you feel an order is immoral. Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen are sworn to protect Democracy, not practice it.

    Id also add that when Manning with through MEPS, he was told all of this dozens of times prior to him signing his contract.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  11. #26
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    Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    Here's one...this one doesn't deal with national security secrets, but it is symbolic of how the Obama Administration handles whistleblowers. I will go find some more...just a few...

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...677_story.html

    Here's another that talks about many of these people...many of them tried to "do it the right way"...it is easy to see why some may choose the way that Snowden or Manning did.

    http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...cy-apple-store

    Here's another that talks about the misleading protections that the Obama administration has claimed are there for whistleblowers to "do it the right way."

    http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...licy-directive

    To be clear, I am not in favor of the way Manning exposed what he thought were government misdeeds: dumping documents and files on to WikiLeaks indiscriminately certainly may have endangered lives.

    Snowden on the other hand seemed to be more discriminating in the information he released, and contrary to government claims, no one has been able to make the case he directly but anyone's life in danger.

    But if all whistleblowers are treated the same, with the full force of the US government (and their allies) trying to basically crush their lives, you certainly can't expect people to report abuses via the official channels and you can expect more of type of leaks like Snowden and Manning.
    Totally understand that. But if Manning at least tried to go through official channels first. If he tried to do it the right way and the military/government cock blocked every which way...and he still felt compelled enough to share this information with the American public and then release it the way he did...I would have alot more respect for and possibly laud Manning.

    As it stands all he did was walk into the SCIF he worked, copy random files from SIPRNET and release it to Wikileaks. I was still active duty at the time, and my coworkers and I (all holding TS clearances and worked in SCIFs) felt he was a young kid looking for his 15 minutes and didn't think through the ramifications of his actions.

    I take my clearance very seriously. The government has put in me a large trust that I will work with classified information and not reveal it. In 12+ plus years working in a classified environment I have yet to come across information that I feel the general public needs to be aware of.




  12. #27
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    Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by Dade View Post
    Totally understand that. But if Manning at least tried to go through official channels first. If he tried to do it the right way and the military/government cock blocked every which way...and he still felt compelled enough to share this information with the American public and then release it the way he did...I would have alot more respect for and possibly laud Manning.

    As it stands all he did was walk into the SCIF he worked, copy random files from SIPRNET and release it to Wikileaks. I was still active duty at the time, and my coworkers and I (all holding TS clearances and worked in SCIFs) felt he was a young kid looking for his 15 minutes and didn't think through the ramifications of his actions.

    I take my clearance very seriously. The government has put in me a large trust that I will work with classified information and not reveal it. In 12+ plus years working in a classified environment I have yet to come across information that I feel the general public needs to be aware of.
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  13. #28

    Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by Dade View Post
    Totally understand that. But if Manning at least tried to go through official channels first. If he tried to do it the right way and the military/government cock blocked every which way...and he still felt compelled enough to share this information with the American public and then release it the way he did...I would have alot more respect for and possibly laud Manning.

    As it stands all he did was walk into the SCIF he worked, copy random files from SIPRNET and release it to Wikileaks. I was still active duty at the time, and my coworkers and I (all holding TS clearances and worked in SCIFs) felt he was a young kid looking for his 15 minutes and didn't think through the ramifications of his actions.

    I take my clearance very seriously. The government has put in me a large trust that I will work with classified information and not reveal it. In 12+ plus years working in a classified environment I have yet to come across information that I feel the general public needs to be aware of.
    Dade. Totally understand. And while I don't work with TOP Secret info, I do deal with sensitive info and take that responsibility seriously, as well.

    Of all the whistleblowers that have come to light over the last few years, I am most uncomfortable with the way Manning disclosed the information.




  14. #29

    Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    Dade. Totally understand. And while I don't work with TOP Secret info, I do deal with sensitive info and take that responsibility seriously, as well.

    Of all the whistleblowers that have come to light over the last few years, I am most uncomfortable with the way Manning disclosed the information.
    It isn't just the way he revealed the information, imo. It is that virtually none of it even deserved to be released at all. He wasn't "blowing the whistle" on anything substantial; he was simply exposing secrets.

    I don't see anything that is clearly illegal or unconstitutional. Spying on foreigners, no. Leaning on allies, no. Supporting dubious regimes while holding your nose, no. Collateral damage in wars, no. "Hints of corruption and bribes" regarding Boeing, maybe, but "hints" doesn't sound like proof, nor does that miniscule issue warrant dumping as many damaging secrets as possible to Assange.

    You also have to realize that Manning almost assuredly has gotten innocent, honorable people killed by releasing these files. These files exposed many foreigners who were secretly helping the US against their own ruthless countrymen while living in a very hostile environment. His buddy, Assange, when asked about Afghan informants being killed after being exposed by the release of the classified information: "They're informants... if they get killed, they deserve it." Despicable. Assange is rooting for the Taliban, make no mistake about it. And Manning naively hitched his wagon to this clown.

    I see zero honor in Manning's actions. And I would feel the same way if he raised internal stinks, was rebuffed, resigned his commission, and released the files. Disapproving of foreign policy is not a just cause to expose classified information, especially if innocent people are going to die as a result of the release. The whistleblower hurdle is massively higher, imo, and it wasn't close to being met with 98% of what was released.
    Last edited by Haloti92; 08-22-2013 at 12:25 PM.




  15. #30
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    Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    It isn't just the way he revealed the information, imo. It is that virtually none of it even deserved to be released at all. He wasn't "blowing the whistle" on anything substantial; he was simply exposing secrets.

    I don't see anything that is clearly illegal or unconstitutional. Spying on foreigners, no. Leaning on allies, no. Supporting dubious regimes while holding your nose, no. Collateral damage in wars, no. "Hints of corruption and bribes" regarding Boeing, maybe, but "hints" doesn't sound like proof, nor does that miniscule issue warrant dumping as many damaging secrets as possible to Assange.

    You also have to realize that Manning almost assuredly has gotten innocent, honorable people killed by releasing these files. These files exposed many foreigners who were secretly helping the US against their own ruthless countrymen while living in a very hostile environment. His buddy, Assange, when asked about Afghan informants being killed after being exposed by the release of the classified information: "They're informants... if they get killed, they deserve it." Despicable. Assange is rooting for the Taliban, make no mistake about it. And Manning naively hitched his wagon to this clown.

    I see zero honor in Manning's actions. And I would feel the same way if he raised internal stinks, was rebuffed, resigned his commission, and released the files. Disapproving of foreign policy is not a just cause to expose classified information, especially if innocent people are going to die as a result of the release. The whistleblower hurdle is massively higher, imo, and it wasn't close to being met with 98% of what was released.
    Good post.
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