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  1. #46

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.



    Quote Originally Posted by RavensNTerps View Post
    Yup and do you really think that guys like James Jones, Randall Cobb, Lance Moore, Marques Colston, etc. would be anything without playing with the QBs with whom they play? Go back to the old Colts teams with guys like Austin Collie and Pierre Garcon making plays. And you nailed it with the Eli Manning comp. Kevin Boss, Jake Ballard, Martellus Bennett, Steve Smith, Victor Cruz, etc.

    Not saying that a handful of these guys wouldn't succeed in any circumstance but the truth is they were all products of their QB. If Joe is truly worth his contract than not having 4 pro bowlers to throw to shouldn't matter much.
    Couple of things on the Giants. The Giants offense struggled in 2006 despite have a ton a of talent. The Giants fired Hufnagel and promoted Gilbride. That coincided with Eli Manning taking off. So is it Gilbride who has made the receivers successful or Manning? Quarterbacks cannot get wide receivers open. Very few receivers have god given ability that allows them to get separation consistently. It is really about what the OC does to get the receiver open. GB and the Giants have some of the best OCs in the business. In Cam's offense the wrs had to be able to get open on their own. There was no creativity. Caldwell is going to have to put the young guys in a position to succeed. It does not mean that they will be pro bowl players but they are not being asked to replace pro bowlers.




  2. #47

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by srobert96 View Post
    Couple of things on the Giants. The Giants offense struggled in 2006 despite have a ton a of talent. The Giants fired Hufnagel and promoted Gilbride. That coincided with Eli Manning taking off. So is it Gilbride who has made the receivers successful or Manning? Quarterbacks cannot get wide receivers open. Very few receivers have god given ability that allows them to get separation consistently. It is really about what the OC does to get the receiver open. GB and the Giants have some of the best OCs in the business. In Cam's offense the wrs had to be able to get open on their own. There was no creativity. Caldwell is going to have to put the young guys in a position to succeed. It does not mean that they will be pro bowl players but they are not being asked to replace pro bowlers.
    Very true.




  3. #48

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by srobert96 View Post
    Couple of things on the Giants. The Giants offense struggled in 2006 despite have a ton a of talent.
    Joe has drawn a lot of comparisons to Eli. It's a fair comparison since both teams have balanced offenses. Excluding Manning's first year (since it was only 7 starts and he went 1-6), Manning's passing totals for years 2 through 6 was 17,401 to Joe's years 1 through 5 at 17,633. Comparable numbers with the edge going to Joe, especially considering Manning's rookie year was excluded. During the post season Joe has no equal.

    Ryan has the weapons in the passing game, but he also has the 29th rushing offense last year. The Falcons designed a throwing offense, and in the salary cap era have spent over 60% of that on offense, the result is a porous defense. The Ravens have always spent more on defense and as a result are a much better defense. Ryan is going to throw a lot because he has to, they need to outscore the other offense. The Ravens are going to run, and that will open up things in the passing game since defenses will be forced to stack the box to slow the running game. The game has evolved and defenses concentrate on defending the pass. A powerful running game can exploit this trend. It's silly to compare passing totals between the 2 of them with such different team philosophies. I'm not predicting Atlanta is going to the Super Bowl, but if they make it this year they will have to play in frigid New York in February. Not ideal for a team built to play in a dome.

    You have to dismiss just how good Joe is and has been early in his career to see the sky falling. He's never had elite talent at WR yet has been the most successful post season quarterback in the league during his first 5 years. The training wheels were removed in the playoffs last year and we got a glimpse of things to come. To me the key is giving him time in the pocket and an effective running game that keeps the opposing defense guessing, both of which appears to be present now.




  4. #49
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    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfish View Post
    To me the key is giving him time in the pocket and an effective running game that keeps the opposing defense guessing, both of which appears to be present now.
    I have always thought that moving Osemele to LG and strengthening the middle of the O-line, which allowed Joe to step up into the pocket, was a bigger key to the passing offense than McKinnie playing LT (although his contribution there cannot be dismissed either).




  5. #50

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfish View Post
    To me the key is giving him time in the pocket and an effective running game that keeps the opposing defense guessing, both of which appears to be present now.
    And to me the key is giving him time in the pocket AND EFFECTIVE WRs. And just about every expert agrees. They are constantly talking about surrounding top tier QBs, which Joe is, with WRs, not running backs. And that's where I think the Ravens have dropped the ball so far this year.




  6. #51

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    And to me the key is giving him time in the pocket AND EFFECTIVE WRs. And just about every expert agrees. They are constantly talking about surrounding top tier QBs, which Joe is, with WRs, not running backs. And that's where I think the Ravens have dropped the ball so far this year.
    Joe has never had elite talent at WR, he'll be fine if the other pieces fall in place. Those same experts were all wrong about the Ravens last year, so I take their opinions with a grain of salt. The expert I most respect is Ozzie, and he has spoken. Many consider him to be the best in the game, so not a bad guy to be calling the shots. Historically the Ravens spend money on defense and building a strong running game, that philosophy remains to my pleasure. Every team has the same amount of money to spend and the Ravens aren't cheap, they have decided not to pursue big name WRs at the expense of other positions. We'll see, there is still time to bring in another WR, but no matter who it is we aren't getting anyone elite.




  7. #52

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfish View Post
    Joe has never had elite talent at WR, he'll be fine if the other pieces fall in place. Those same experts were all wrong about the Ravens last year, so I take their opinions with a grain of salt. The expert I most respect is Ozzie, and he has spoken. Many consider him to be the best in the game, so not a bad guy to be calling the shots. Historically the Ravens spend money on defense and building a strong running game, that philosophy remains to my pleasure. Every team has the same amount of money to spend and the Ravens aren't cheap, they have decided not to pursue big name WRs at the expense of other positions. We'll see, there is still time to bring in another WR, but no matter who it is we aren't getting anyone elite.
    All you've presented is the status quo. The point was to improve the offense, not maintain, especially after spending $120M on an elite QB.

    And despite all of Ozzie's qualities, assessing/drafting/developing WRs is not one of them. The Ravens got hot at the right time and won it all, but standing pat is not the way to build a dynasty. Constant improving is the key. And given how the rules have changed favoring WRs over DBs, teams that "get it" are going to pass by teams that don't. Last year the Ravens had just enough to win it all. Resting on one's laurels, or going backwards, is not the way to establish a dynasty. The Ravens are close to establishing a dynasty given the Steelers decline and the Bengals refusal to spend money to improve significantly. It's right there for the taking; all that's necessary is the vision to bring it all together. The Ravens are very close; in fact, maybe just one WR away from nailing it down. Depending on David Reed and Tandon Doss and unproven WRs is not the way to do that, especially when the money was there to put the final nail in the coffin. We'll see how it all plays out.




  8. #53

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    I agree 21215 but we absolutely had to address the defense this OS. I share your philosophy though: if ya gonna pay #5 $120m then arm him with an improved option of two.
    "On their way to the podium, the Ravens FO is going to collectively step over my dead body and select...Breshad Perriman." -- Me, the day before the Draft

    Settle down. John Harbaugh and Joe Flacco's Baltimore Ravens can beat any team, anywhere.

    Having fun talking football and tech stuff on Twitter @BigPlayReceiver




  9. #54

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    We'll disagree on these points. The 2 Super Bowl teams last year were build similarly, strong defense and an emphasis on a strong running game. The philosophy has made the Ravens a Super Bowl champ and the most successful playoff team in the league for the last 5 years with what many consider the best front office. They don't need to catch up to anyone. Atlanta has totally investing in a passing offense and have one playoff win to show for it because they lack balance. Porous defense that can't stop another team's offense and no running game to milk the clock when they have a lead.

    The next Super Bowl will be outside in New York in February. Defense and running will be a key in that game too.




  10. #55

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigPlayReceiver View Post
    I agree 21215 but we absolutely had to address the defense this OS. I share your philosophy though: if ya gonna pay #5 $120m then arm him with an improved option of two.
    It's wasn't an either or proposition. I think they made the right moves in improving the defense. Indirectly, it helps the offense because it takes some of the pressure off. But they HAD the money to bring in at least one proven WR. And they chose to stay pat with Doss, Reed, etc. I think that's a mistake. RIW thinks it was a mistake to not re-sign Boldin; I don't, as I've already stated. What I think was the mistake was to not re-sign Boldin and think that the WRs already in camp were good enough to fill the void. And that was before Pitta went out for the year.

    By the same token, I think that there's a very fine line between fielding a top tier offense and a very good offense. There was a lot of discussion when the Steelers fired Ariens and hired Haley. One thought was that the Steelers brass decided it was too expensive and unstable to build an offense around a gun slinging QB and expensive WRs. There might just be something to that. And the more I think about it, it might make the most sense to gear the whole team such that the defense is very strong, and the offense is properly balanced. The Ravens already have Joe locked up, and the running game should be quite good in 2013. They're gambling that one of the as yet unproven WRs is going to pan out. It could happen, but given the Ravens past history, more times than not it hasn't worked out that way. The main way, aside from Smith, that the Ravens have boosted the WR corps was via FA (Mason, Boldin, even Jones.) I think the Ravens could have maintained the basic structure of not overpaying while still improving the offense with the addition of one more WR. And it helps the QB/WR relationship to do it early in camp so things like timing and trust can be established. Waiting until a week before opening day puts that timetable needlessly behind the 8-ball. It's frustrating to see the Ravens so close yet unable to nail down a key piece of the puzzle, especially when there are/were options available.




  11. #56

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    I agree with what Big is saying. The philosophy the Ravens FO is employing has served them well the last 5 years. "Doe not panic".

    http://youtu.be/eAqYTTf-Gn8




  12. #57

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfish View Post
    We'll disagree on these points. The 2 Super Bowl teams last year were build similarly, strong defense and an emphasis on a strong running game. The philosophy has made the Ravens a Super Bowl champ and the most successful playoff team in the league for the last 5 years with what many consider the best front office. They don't need to catch up to anyone. Atlanta has totally investing in a passing offense and have one playoff win to show for it because they lack balance. Porous defense that can't stop another team's offense and no running game to milk the clock when they have a lead.

    The next Super Bowl will be outside in New York in February. Defense and running will be a key in that game too.
    No problem at all in disagreeing. Hell...if everyone agreed on everything the world would be boring as hell. Personally, I find it interesting to discuss differences, as long as it's done with respect and the bottom line understanding that everyone wants what's best -- or at least what s/he things is best -- for the team.




  13. #58

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by HKusp View Post
    I agree with what Big is saying. The philosophy the Ravens FO is employing has served them well the last 5 years. "Doe not panic".

    <iframe width="960" height="720" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/eAqYTTf-Gn8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    Discussing how the FO could do things differently and panicking are two different things. (Although I do understand that some people are indeed hitting that panic button. I'm not one of them. I think the Ravens are the front runners to win the AFC North again. That doesn't mean that I think all the moves the FO makes are correct, and when I feel that they are not doing something correct I'll voice that.)




  14. #59

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    No problem at all in disagreeing. Hell...if everyone agreed on everything the world would be boring as hell. Personally, I find it interesting to discuss differences, as long as it's done with respect and the bottom line understanding that everyone wants what's best -- or at least what s/he things is best -- for the team.
    I agree. Probably everyone of us is uncomfortable with our stable of WRs, I just resigned myself that Ozzie makes these decisions and he must be seeing something good in what we have.




  15. #60

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfish View Post
    I agree. Probably everyone of us is uncomfortable with our stable of WRs, I just resigned myself that Ozzie makes these decisions and he must be seeing something good in what we have.
    Cool. And I've concluded that returning to a run to set up the pass approach might be the way to go. It would help if people would get off Joe's back about his "personal stats", but there are just some people who are going to do that, and I've resigned myself to that reality. It would also help if at least one more WR were proven, but right now that's not the way it is. I'd be thrilled to see someone emerge. Hell...I was a huge Tandon Doss fan, and I can't begin to express how disappointed I was in him when he finally got his shot. I hope that the Tandon Doss that Joe saw when he pushed for Doss is still in there somewhere. But I wouldn't bet the farm -- on the 2013 season -- on it. I also like Streeter and would love to see what he can do. Same with Thompson. So I'm ready for some football and to see our Ravens defend their championship. Please don't think otherwise.




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