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  1. #751
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    Re: Training Camp 2013 Thread





    Don't tell that to the guys that have all dem sacks and got millions for it.




  2. #752
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    Re: Training Camp 2013 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post


    Don't tell that to the guys that have all dem sacks and got millions for it.
    They don't just get the money for the sacks, they get money for consistent pressure on the QB and being able to play the run as well.

    Dumervil is a very good (not elite) pass rusher, but poor against the run. I think we're all savvy enough to know that one statistic doesn't define how good a player is, so I'm not sure why it's being trotted out here.




  3. #753

    Re: Training Camp 2013 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Van Cleef View Post
    They don't just get the money for the sacks, they get money for consistent pressure on the QB and being able to play the run as well.

    Dumervil is a very good (not elite) pass rusher, but poor against the run. I think we're all savvy enough to know that one statistic doesn't define how good a player is, so I'm not sure why it's being trotted out here.
    That sounds like Paul Kruger.

    I imagine Ozzie puts a higher grade on Dumervil than that or he wouldn't be here.

    But, yeah, your overall point is correct.




  4. #754
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    Re: Training Camp 2013 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pickles View Post
    That sounds like Paul Kruger.

    I imagine Ozzie puts a higher grade on Dumervil than that or he wouldn't be here.

    But, yeah, your overall point is correct.
    Agreed, and I think a lot of people were surprised that Kruger got the money he did, I seem to remember comments like him being a one-dimensional player being thrown around then.

    But I do think it's interesting that the Ravens were able to get Dumervil for the money they did, there is a market for passrushers and there were teams out there with deeper pockets than the Ravens had, cap-wise. Why was Ozzie able to get him at that price if he's this guy that people want him to be?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled at the potential passrush options, but I was at the time, and probably still am, a bit more excited with the Canty signing, the versatility he lends our front and the options that frees up are pretty exciting.




  5. #755

    Re: Training Camp 2013 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Van Cleef View Post
    They don't just get the money for the sacks, they get money for consistent pressure on the QB and being able to play the run as well.

    Dumervil is a very good (not elite) pass rusher, but poor against the run. I think we're all savvy enough to know that one statistic doesn't define how good a player is, so I'm not sure why it's being trotted out here.
    Dumervil was poor against the run as a 4-3 DE. He is not as bad as an OLB in the 3-4. That being said I think the Ravens will save him by having a him in a rotation with Upshaw. As a player he has the potential to be an elite pass rusher.




  6. #756

    Re: Training Camp 2013 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Van Cleef View Post
    Agreed, and I think a lot of people were surprised that Kruger got the money he did, I seem to remember comments like him being a one-dimensional player being thrown around then.

    But I do think it's interesting that the Ravens were able to get Dumervil for the money they did, there is a market for passrushers and there were teams out there with deeper pockets than the Ravens had, cap-wise. Why was Ozzie able to get him at that price if he's this guy that people want him to be?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled at the potential passrush options, but I was at the time, and probably still am, a bit more excited with the Canty signing, the versatility he lends our front and the options that frees up are pretty exciting.
    I think part of the reason they were able to get him on the cheap so to speak is that a lot of the teams blew their wad early in FA before Dumervil was available.




  7. #757
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    While I'll agree that sacks aren't everything, and that they can be used as an overrated measure of how good a pass rusher is, I will say that at the end of the day sacks are sacks. Dumervil got to the QB 17 times as an 3-4 olb in 2009. You can't just brush aside 17 sacks and point to his main weaknesses in run def. He's been a productive pass rusher almost every season he's been in the league, while Kruger had one good run towards the end of last season and got overpaid imo. Dumervil has the body of work and will be our nickel olb and 3rd down pass rusher, Upshaw will have the duties in run defense in Jarret Johnson's old role here, which he did to a very good standard last season. So Dumervil's weakness in run def are irrelevant, that's not going to be his role here. Also, Doom will be surrounded by a more talented front 7 here in Baltimore than he ever had in Denver. The Broncos had a good def last season, but a lot of that was due to Von Miller and Doom him self. The interior of Denver's defense were filled with average vet role players, and I guess Woodyard has turned out to be a decent player. Other than that, he didn't have much to work with. He'll be with Sizzle, Canty, Ngata, and Upshaw in Baltimore, which on paper is overall significantly better than what Denver have ever had.




  8. #758
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    Re: Training Camp 2013 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Van Cleef View Post
    They don't just get the money for the sacks, they get money for consistent pressure
    Of course, constant pressure will get you sacks.

    Doom is making millions for not being very good vs the run.




  9. #759
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    Re: Training Camp 2013 Thread

    Getting to the QB > everything else. Pass rushers are a premium especially in today's NFL.




  10. #760
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    Re: Training Camp 2013 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Paintballguy View Post
    Getting to the QB > everything else. Pass rushers are a premium especially in today's NFL.
    I'll agree it is more important than any other single attribute, but not more important than everything else combined. You can deal with an elite pass rusher if that's all they can do. Run some three-step drops, draws, and screens. Chip him with a TE/RB, roll protection, move the pocket, etc. Even if you get 20 sacks, even if you get 60 pressures, that doesn't tell the whole story. A defense faces 1000-1100 plays in a year. What did you do on the rest of them? This is why we loved JJ. We knew the stuff he did that didn't show up in the stat sheet, but it helped us win football games.

    Can you set the edge? Because if you can't, we might give up a 60 yard TD run. Can you cover the TE in the flat? Because if you can't, we might let them convert that 3rd-and-6 on the game winning TD drive. Can you read the QB, stop rushing and get your hands up causing an incompletion? Or are you always trying to pad your sack numbers, so you don't bother with things like that that help the team.

    The point is, while sacks and pressures are nice, even the best players only achieve that on 5% of their plays. What are they doing the other 95% of the time? Informed football fans want to know.
    "Leave. Your. Mark."




  11. #761
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    Re: Training Camp 2013 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HotInHere View Post
    I'll agree it is more important than any other single attribute, but not more important than everything else combined. You can deal with an elite pass rusher if that's all they can do. Run some three-step drops, draws, and screens. Chip him with a TE/RB, roll protection, move the pocket, etc. Even if you get 20 sacks, even if you get 60 pressures, that doesn't tell the whole story. A defense faces 1000-1100 plays in a year. What did you do on the rest of them? This is why we loved JJ. We knew the stuff he did that didn't show up in the stat sheet, but it helped us win football games.

    Can you set the edge? Because if you can't, we might give up a 60 yard TD run. Can you cover the TE in the flat? Because if you can't, we might let them convert that 3rd-and-6 on the game winning TD drive. Can you read the QB, stop rushing and get your hands up causing an incompletion? Or are you always trying to pad your sack numbers, so you don't bother with things like that that help the team.

    The point is, while sacks and pressures are nice, even the best players only achieve that on 5% of their plays. What are they doing the other 95% of the time? Informed football fans want to know.

    We have run stuffers. Upshaw was ranked one of the top outside linebackers against the run last year. Dumervil isn't going to be asked to play the JJ role. He's going to be rushing the passer.




  12. #762
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    Re: Training Camp 2013 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Paintballguy View Post
    We have run stuffers. Upshaw was ranked one of the top outside linebackers against the run last year. Dumervil isn't going to be asked to play the JJ role. He's going to be rushing the passer.
    Exactly and he won't be an every down player either.
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  13. #763
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    For the record, doom isn't terrible in run def, and probably a little better than Kruger. It's harder stopping the run with your hands in the dirt at 5 11. I think he'll be better at it standing up as he was in 09. As others have stated, Upshaw will be playing the JJ role, and will do a fine job of it. I doubt we'll be seeing Doom in on 1st and 2nd downs against the Browns or the Vikes




  14. #764

    Re: Training Camp 2013 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Paintballguy View Post
    We have run stuffers. Upshaw was ranked one of the top outside linebackers against the run last year. Dumervil isn't going to be asked to play the JJ role. He's going to be rushing the passer.
    With them moving McPhee to OLB, it's silly how deep we are at that position. Suggs, Dumervil, Upshaw, McPhee and Simon. Actually, it's pretty crazy how deep (and versatile) we are throughout the defense. I'm even good with our ILBs (even without McClain). Smith, Bynes, Brown and McClellan is just fine with me.




  15. #765

    Re: Training Camp 2013 Thread

    I think Doom is going to outplay Upshaw to such a point that he'll grab a lot of playing time from him. So while they both will play, I think as the season goes on youre going to see Doom mostly playing and only coming out for rests. I think hes a much better player and a leader for the D that is going to make it really hard to pull him out.
    -JAB




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