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  1. #37

    Re: George Zimmerman Trial



    The reason we can surmise Trayvon confronted Zimmerman is because otherwise he had plenty of time to get to his supposed destination. Plenty of time.




  2. #38
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    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    Besides the point that everybodies testimony starts after they heard yelling and/or fighting. Nobodies testimony has any reflection on the initial meeting between the two, besides Jeantel, who ive not really been using despite her testimony strongly favoring that Zimmerman confronted Tayvon. I dont think we know anything about that first moment which is exactly what we need to for a conclusion.
    Not testimony. Time stamped calls to 911 and cell phone records show there was little to no time. Besides, you think Zimmerman is guilty simply because Martin wasn't big enough to be considered a deadly weapon, but he's big enough to get out of being mounted while on his stomach reverse positions and get the better of Zimerman?


    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    If youre asking if I though Ray Lewis was capable of lying to cover up what he did, yes. After everything, i dont think he did it and admitted to what he was guilty of. at the time, i certainly took what he said with a grain of salt. now with hindsight in my favor i dont need to.
    NO, I'm asking if you think simply because someone is charged nothing they say is credible or true.


    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    police reports? his own admittance? simple geography of where he started and where he ended up? the fact that they met face to face in the end? Im not sure im seeing where almost any of that is conjecture. he says he stopped following him at one point, but yet where the killing ended up is at another and off his path back to his car. like i said originally, at the very least hes guilty of at least meeting him half way, assuming they saw each other and walked towards each other. If thats not the case, it would seem he was still following or looking for him as his path leads towards Trayvons house.
    It's conjecture because you're drawing a conclusion based of guess work, pretty uch the definition of conjecture. The way you stated it it's as if Zimmerman followed the whole time and then confronted Martin. a) we have no evidence of that b) see my earlier post about the 911 operator asking Zimmerman if he was following ans asking him to not do that

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    then i guess i should question how closely youve been following . Im not questioning that Trayvon hit Zimmerman, thats a given but its possible he hit him and Zimmerman pulled out his gun, to which couldve scared Trayvon to yell for help (and possibly stopped the fight before needing to fire the weapon). Even Good himself stated he wasnt sure who was yelling. Selma Moras testimony has Zimmerman on top of Trayvon, not the other way around. She was outside on her porch as well. All of that doesnt even matter to me. Its the initial meeting and who was the first to make physical contact. which again, theres nothing to support one way or another.
    I didn't hear all of her's I was at work. But I have to ask, why you think he's guilty if there is no proof of who started the fight?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    youre not the only one that has taken Good's testimony and just ignored Mora's. maybe because it was in Spanish and translated its less credible? honestly I have no idea whats driving that. She seems credible to me and was in just as good of a position as Good was ultimately.
    Again, I didn't hear all of her's or his for that matter. But his is more credible to me cause he came out and yelled at them while they were feet away from him.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    he said "I think hes black". so no, he had a pretty good idea he was black or at the very least assumed he was. either way, a guy walking through the neighborhood with a hoody was enough to call the police and assume he was up to something and worth following around the development. That along with doing so 50+ other times says all I need to know about Zimmerman.
    Thank god you're not on the jury. He was a neighborhood watch captain, that was asked to be the captain. He said "he looks black" only after being asked. HE didn't call saying he there's this suspicious looking black guy wondering around.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  3. #39

    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Not testimony. Time stamped calls to 911 and cell phone records show there was little to no time. Besides, you think Zimmerman is guilty simply because Martin wasn't big enough to be considered a deadly weapon, but he's big enough to get out of being mounted while on his stomach reverse positions and get the better of Zimerman?
    He was unarmed and 40lbs lighter. To my recollection theres not too many states that will declare that a deadly weapon unless trained in combat sports (which i found all the mma talk interesting for that reason).

    NO, I'm asking if you think simply because someone is charged nothing they say is credible or true.
    Id say what they say isnt the end all be all of testimony. Theyre the ones with the most to lose so therefore the most likely to lie or distort truth.

    It's conjecture because you're drawing a conclusion based of guess work, pretty uch the definition of conjecture. The way you stated it it's as if Zimmerman followed the whole time and then confronted Martin. a) we have no evidence of that b) see my earlier post about the 911 operator asking Zimmerman if he was following ans asking him to not do that
    What guess work? He was on the phone telling the operator he was following him. When trayvon ran away he got out and ran after him. The police report clearly traces his steps and when he hung up "to go back to his truck" and wait for police he went in a complete different direction from his truck and towards trayvons house. Theres no conjecture there, those are all things that happened. He says trayvon jumped him. Nobody else witnessed it. My conjecture, is that i think zimmerman tried to take things into his own hands and apprehend him. I have no proof of that, but thats what i think from his actions of calling into police so much and statements like "they always get away".

    I didn't hear all of her's I was at work. But I have to ask, why you think he's guilty if there is no proof of who started the fight?
    Again, I didn't hear all of her's or his for that matter. But his is more credible to me cause he came out and yelled at them while they were feet away from him.
    so you havent heard one of the biggest witnesses for the prosecution yet throw jabs at me for not knowing what im talking about? Seems your opinion is based off less information than mine which im not sure how you can crticize me for. Which btw, ive been very clear that i dont doubt its possible things happen liked you say, i simply think they happened another. Ive been pretty clear i have no proof of what happened at the beginning, nobody does. Its all conjecture on those first seconds. You certainly seem to think you have proof, but i assure you that you dont. Just opinion and in this case it coincides with the defendent. I have no issue with that.

    Thank god you're not on the jury. He was a neighborhood watch captain, that was asked to be the captain. He said "he looks black" only after being asked. HE didn't call saying he there's this suspicious looking black guy wondering around.
    Im not sure why you continue to be so condenscending. The reason they used his previous phone calls was to set a precedent that the guy judged and profiled before. Just walking through his neoghborhood deemed you up to no good. Black white whatever. Because he didnt say black when calling doesnt mean he didnt profile. Honestly hes assumed a lot of civilians were criminals for no reason over the last year and a half. Having had my house broken into i get the feeling of vulnerability that comes with that, with zimmerman i believe that fueled him to be untrusting of anyone and eventually to go over the edge and confront ortry to apprehend so he didnt get away. Serinos testimony basically suported that a guy afraid for his life doesnt get out of his truck and follow him, which he did, atleast initially.
    Last edited by JAB1985; 07-01-2013 at 06:32 PM.
    -JAB




  4. #40

    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    The only thing that matters in this case at all, assuming the relevant law actually matters (and not some nebulous sense of social 'justice' that allows one to ignore the law when one feels the need), is whether it is reasonable to believe that Zimmerman could have been in fear of death or 'great bodily harm' and was unable to escape that fear without using his gun. That is the only relevant issue.

    To that point, his injuries, body positioning (whether or not mounted), and any threats from Trayvon ('you're going to die', etc) are all that matters. The latter can never be proven or disproven. The former speak for themselves. And body positioning is being debated/disputed by different witnesses.

    'Profiling' doesn't matter. Whether Zimmerman was following Trayvon doesn't matter. And according to the law, whether Zimmerman or Trayvon threw the first punch doesn't even matter. And as for that last issue, the evidence and timeline absolutely indicate Trayvon stayed around for a confrontation versus simply entering his destination (as he had more than ample time to do).
    Last edited by Haloti92; 07-01-2013 at 07:35 PM.




  5. #41
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    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    He was unarmed and 40lbs lighter. To my recollection theres not too many states that will declare that a deadly weapon unless trained in combat sports (which i found all the mma talk interesting for that reason).
    Unarmed and 40lbs lighter but big enough to get out of a mounted position and turn the tables?


    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    Id say what they say isnt the end all be all of testimony. Theyre the ones with the most to lose so therefore the most likely to lie or distort truth.
    I’ve heard this story several times, many before he was even charged. As did the lead investigator who pretty much said today other than some minor inconsistencies he seemed truthful.


    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    What guess work? He was on the phone telling the operator he was following him. When trayvon ran away he got out and ran after him. The police report clearly traces his steps and when he hung up "to go back to his truck" and wait for police he went in a complete different direction from his truck and towards trayvons house. Theres no conjecture there, those are all things that happened. He says trayvon jumped him. Nobody else witnessed it. My conjecture, is that i think zimmerman tried to take things into his own hands and apprehend him. I have no proof of that, but thats what i think from his actions of calling into police so much and statements like "they always get away".
    Guess work saying “he continued to follow him” His truck was close to where the fight took place, he said he was walking back to it after looking for an address and by all accounts that seems at least plausible..

    I noticed today from investigator Serino that Martin’s house where Rachel Jentiel said he was at when the hung up the phone or it hung up, is at the other end of the row of townhouses from where the fight took place. So either Martin lied, misspoke, didn’t know where he was or he could have seen Zimerman walking back to his truck after looking for an address and confronted him. Of the 4 the first 3 seem the least likely.


    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    so you havent heard one of the biggest witnesses for the prosecution yet throw jabs at me for not knowing what im talking about? Seems your opinion is based off less information than mine which im not sure how you can crticize me for. Which btw, ive been very clear that i dont doubt its possible things happen liked you say, i simply think they happened another. Ive been pretty clear i have no proof of what happened at the beginning, nobody does. Its all conjecture on those first seconds. You certainly seem to think you have proof, but i assure you that you dont. Just opinion and in this case it coincides with the defendent. I have no issue with that.
    I said I didn’t hear all of it. I did hear her say the man on the top got up walked around and was holding his head and his side. So if that was before the shot that means Martin laid there while Zimmerman walked around after getting beat up got up and than got shot by Zimmerman.



    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    Im not sure why you continue to be so condenscending. The reason they used his previous phone calls was to set a precedent that the guy judged and profiled before. Just walking through his neoghborhood deemed you up to no good. Black white whatever. Because he didnt say black when calling doesnt mean he didnt profile. Honestly hes assumed a lot of civilians were criminals for no reason over the last year and a half. Having had my house broken into i get the feeling of vulnerability that comes with that, with zimmerman i believe that fueled him to be untrusting of anyone and eventually to go over the edge and confront ortry to apprehend so he didnt get away. Serinos testimony basically suported that a guy afraid for his life doesnt get out of his truck and follow him, which he did, atleast initially.
    I’m not being condescending. You said he called the police 50 times and “that tells you all you need to know about Zimmerman” thus… he has to be guilty.

    By the way just what is it you think he is guilty of?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  6. #42
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    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    The only thing that matters in this case at all, assuming the relevant law actually matters (and not some nebulous sense of social 'justice' that allows one to ignore the law when one feels the need), is whether it is reasonable to believe that Zimmerman could have been in fear of death or 'great bodily harm' and was unable to escape that fear without using his gun. That is the only relevant issue.

    To that point, his injuries, body positioning (whether or not mounted), and any threats from Trayvon ('you're going to die', etc) are all that matters. The latter can never be proven or disproven. The former speak for themselves. And body positioning is being debated/disputed by different witnesses.

    'Profiling' doesn't matter. Whether Zimmerman was following Trayvon doesn't matter. And according to the law, whether Zimmerman or Trayvon threw the first punch doesn't even matter. And as for that last issue, the evidence and timeline absolutely indicate Trayvon stayed around for a confrontation versus simply entering his destination (as he had more than ample time to do).


    Said the same to my brother today. He said that Zimmerman's mistake was getting out and following Martin. I said, when is that against the law?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  7. #43
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    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    I've been wondering since when is following someone a bad thing?

    Are people hired to be neighborhood watchmen supposed to be stationary and non observant?
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  8. #44
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    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    THIS:

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    The state is unlikely to prevail in arguing Zimmerman was the aggressor because to be the aggressor, Zimmerman had to contemporaneously provoke the force Martin used against him. Zimmermanís profiling of Martin and call to the non-emergency number were not contemporaneous with Martinís attack. Even if the state could convince a judge or jury that Zimmerman was following Martin, rather than walking back to his car, rendering his pursuit a contemporaneous act, it is not an act that provokes Martinís use of force against him. Demanding someone account for their presence does not provoke the use of force. Even if it could be construed to be provocation for using force, all it means is Zimmerman had to attempt reasonable means to extricate himself before using deadly force in response. W-6′s steadfast insistence that Zimmerman was struggling to get up and out from under Trayvon, right before the shot went off, fulfills that requirement. Zimmerman will say the same. And no witnesses saw anything different.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



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  9. #45
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    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    Okay what am I missing here? It seems to be pretty clear she is talking about after the shot.

    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  10. #46

    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post


    Said the same to my brother today. He said that Zimmerman's mistake was getting out and following Martin. I said, when is that against the law?
    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    I've been wondering since when is following someone a bad thing?

    Are people hired to be neighborhood watchmen supposed to be stationary and non observant?
    observe and report.

    getting out of the truck and CHASING is what was wrong or at the very least questionable. Im curious what he was going to do if he caught him or Martin stopped running? Assuming the guy was bad because hes walking in the rain with his hoodie up is idiotic, but not against the law. Ive done that vary thing many times and can tell you i was guilty of nothing. in zimmermans eyes that means youre up to no good. So thats fine for him to call the police and keep an eye on where he went, following in his car and staying on the phone. absolutely fine. you can start to see how that would freak somebody out though, which apparently Martin was to some degree to run away, but still no crime. getting out and running after him is where it gets blurry on the line he crossed. you could easily call that action stalking and/or harassment because he has nothing to go off of to say hes suspicious other than walking in the rain. After that, I think whoever started the first physical action is important. for all we know Martin feared for his life based off those actions and/or whatever followed. how does that work? both feared for their lives so both are innocent of any wrong doing regardless of outcome? knowing we dont know what happened to start it, If it was Martin that killed Zimmerman in that exchange is he getting off as well?

    Nobody has evidence to support that first interaction between the two. Thats why hes going to get off, which i said from the beginning. Everything up to that point can point you in one direction or another but ultimately, not unlike AirFlacco said, its meaningless to the actual confrontation which we only know Zimmermans side. its your prerogative. For me, I think Trayvon running away to begin with meant he tried to get away from him and I think Zimmermans history and own words points to him wanting to stop him from getting away. If Zimmerman kept following him and confronted him but Martin still acted first, i dont think hes guilty of anything. I just feel something else had to happen to provoke that between running away and punching Zimmerman.
    Last edited by JAB1985; 07-02-2013 at 07:34 AM.
    -JAB




  11. #47
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    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    getting out of the truck and CHASING is what was wrong or at the very least questionable
    Chasing? Where is it in the evidence presented thus far that he was chasing Martin?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    Assuming the guy was bad because hes walking in the rain with his hoodie up is idiotic, but not against the law.
    That's your assumption of his motivation.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    getting out and running after him is where it gets blurry on the line he crossed.
    Now he's running? Ok, where in the evidence is he now running?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    you could easily call that action stalking and/or harassment because he has nothing to go off of to say hes suspicious other than walking in the rain. After that, I think whoever started the first physical action is important. for all we know Martin feared for his life based off those actions and/or whatever followed. how does that work? both feared for their lives so both are innocent of any wrong doing regardless of outcome? knowing we dont know what happened to start it, If it was Martin that killed Zimmerman in that exchange is he getting off as well?

    Nobody has evidence to support that first interaction between the two. Thats why hes going to get off, which i said from the beginning. Everything up to that point can point you in one direction or another but ultimately, not unlike AirFlacco said, its meaningless to the actual confrontation which we only know Zimmermans side. its your prerogative. For me, I think Trayvon running away to begin with meant he tried to get away from him and I think Zimmermans history and own words points to him wanting to stop him from getting away. If Zimmerman kept following him and confronted him but Martin still acted first, i dont think hes guilty of anything. I just feel something else had to happen to provoke that between running away and punching Zimmerman.
    For someone who earlier claimed to be basing their opinion on the facts in the case, you're certainly doing a TON of assuming here.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  12. #48
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    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    We have a neighborhood watch in our neighborhood -- well, it's actually a dude in his 70's who drives around in a golf cart -- and I've been followed numerous times.

    Can't say I ever felt threatened by it. In fact, I was glad to see him. Most of the time it's when my wife and I walk home from our neighborhood watering hole and it's late.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




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