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  1. #31

    Re: George Zimmerman Trial



    Zimmerman will get acquitted after about an hour or less after the trial ends .
    That's how little of a case the prosecution has .




  2. #32

    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    JAB, it would seem to me from how closely I’ve been following this (ever since NBC edited the 911 tape my interest was peaked) that you have not been.

    For example, Zimmerman was on top after the shots were fired. I think there has only been one testimony out of all the people that have said they think Zimmerman was on top before they heard a shot.
    Because I dont see it the way you do, I must not have been following? That comes off a little condescending. Ive been reading up on it from multiple news outlets since it happened. Youre stating he was on top after as if it was impossible for him to ever have been on top before that or even before the shot. The beginning of the fight is whats in question and nobody has a testimony for that. the witnesses that are saying they saw it, are Good and Mora and they contradict each other and both miss crucial time in which he would be guilty or not. The timing of which could be theoretically the reason for it without either lying about what they saw. not saying your way is wrong, its plausible, im just putting together both testimonies because they both seem to be credible, yet contradicting.

    From all the evidence so far, everything seems to corroborate Zimmerman’s story that they met (some how) Martin either sucker punched or punched Zimerman in the nose, breaking it and knocking him down, then jumping on top and punched him in the face beating his head into the concrete. Which was confirmed by the only witness that came outside to see what was going on. After that went on for at least 26 seconds (from the infamous 911 tape where you hear screaming for 26 seconds) before hearing the shot.
    his story. whos on trial for murder. If he grabbed him first before that and that was the result of it, doesnt that change the whole story? I could come up and grab somebody and them kick my ass and it be considered self defense of my actions. I pull out a gun after that same scenario, I dont think Im defending myself, because i started the altercation. Thats basically what i feel happened and im mostly going by the way Zimmerman talked and his actions prior to any of it happening to form that opinion (prior calls, not wanting him to get away, continuing to follow him and eventually confronting). thats exactly why hes on trial. to try and prove whether he acted first or trayvon did. Whether they can prove one way or another is something i dont think they can because the only people that actually can testify to it, are on trial for it or dead.

    Youre also taking that the screaming is him, which depending on who you believe, the professionals that contradict each other, or the multiple witnesses that do as well, its going to lead you one way or another. could be him screaming until pulling out his gun and shooting Trayvon or the abrupt ending being trayvon screaming after Zimmerman pulled out the gun. Either way I think its more dependent upon what happened before that than in that exact moment. Im trying to put all the pieces together, at least credible ones, and i think thats where the truth is, somewhere in between.

    As far as the walking shit show that was the State’s star witness. One thing she said that stood out to me. When asked something about Martin confronting Zimmerman she said “no, if he would have done that he would have said (something to the affect) I gotta let you go cause I’m gonna confront this cracka” (paraphrasing). Now I know as a lawyer you generally don’t want to ask question you don’t already know the answer to, but I would have had to have asked how she knew that. Had this happened before? Or is that what happened this time and she is lying?
    I think she lost credibility for sure, so what she said i dont think carries much weight anymore. However I dont think she was necessarily lying about the phone conversation. obviously not the brightest crayon in the box, but you dont have to be intelligent to have heard somebody's last words unfortunately. If thats the best the state can do than like i said before, hell likely walk regardless if hes truly guilty or not.
    Last edited by JAB1985; 07-01-2013 at 07:50 AM.
    -JAB




  3. #33
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    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    I think both of you are saying the same thing.

    But JAB, I'd point out that while you may believe some of the info that's in the media, much of that has been underwhelming when brought to light.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  4. #34

    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    I think both of you are saying the same thing.

    But JAB, I'd point out that while you may believe some of the info that's in the media, much of that has been underwhelming when brought to light.
    Im not really basing this off the medias portrayal. Theyre pushing a racial agenda, and while i do think hes guilty of profiling, i dont think that plays much into him shooting Trayvon. I dont think he set out to shoot him because he was black. He clearly feared for his life in some capacity at one point or another. To me its whether he started the altercation or not that gives him the right to say he was defending himself. The prior calls, his own words, his actions arent being twisted by the media. I can listen to his 911 call and see his phone records and his actions that night of following him in the first place to say he thought he was doing the right thing but it ended badly and imo, he likely over stepped his bounds by trying to detain him. Theres no evidence saying he tried to to, I just feel that he probably did based on his thought that he was trying to help and was pissed that "they always get away". strictly opinion. with that said, i can see the side that thinks he confronted Trayvon and was attacked. Being followed and profiled i could see pissing off Trayvon to act in which case its possible to call it defending yourself. I tend to think Zimmerman did something more to provoke that but i freely admit it could have happened without him doing so.
    Last edited by JAB1985; 07-01-2013 at 08:42 AM.
    -JAB




  5. #35
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    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    Because I dont see it the way you do, I must not have been following? That comes off a little condescending. Ive been reading up on it from multiple news outlets since it happened. Youre stating he was on top after as if it was impossible for him to ever have been on top before that or even before the shot. The beginning of the fight is whats in question and nobody has a testimony for that. the witnesses that are saying they saw it, are Good and Mora and they contradict each other and both miss crucial time in which he would be guilty or not. The timing of which could be theoretically the reason for it without either lying about what they saw. not saying your way is wrong, its plausible, im just putting together both testimonies because they both seem to be credible, yet contradicting.
    My bad, it did come off condescending, but it’s not because you don’t see it my way that I said that because through evidence it’s virtually impossible for Zimmerman to be on top at any point before the shot was fired.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    his story. whos on trial for murder.
    So you didn’t believe anything Ray Lewis said either?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    continuing to follow him and eventually confronting)
    How do you know he continued to follow and/ or confronted him? That’s conjecture, at best,

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    Youre also taking that the screaming is him, which depending on who you believe, the professionals that contradict each other, or the multiple witnesses that do as well
    There was only one witness that I’ve heard say they saw someone screaming and that was Good, the only person that came outside during the fight. And why would Martin be screaming for help when he had no wounds on his body but the shot and bruising on his knuckles?


    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    Im not really basing this off the medias portrayal. Theyre pushing a racial agenda, and while i do think hes guilty of profiling,.
    He didn’t know he was black until after he called, at least that’s how it sounds on the call to the police to report a suspicious person
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  6. #36

    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    My bad, it did come off condescending, but it’s not because you don’t see it my way that I said that because through evidence it’s virtually impossible for Zimmerman to be on top at any point before the shot was fired.
    Besides the point that everybodies testimony starts after they heard yelling and/or fighting. Nobodies testimony has any reflection on the initial meeting between the two, besides Jeantel, who ive not really been using despite her testimony strongly favoring that Zimmerman confronted Tayvon. I dont think we know anything about that first moment which is exactly what we need to for a conclusion.

    So you didn’t believe anything Ray Lewis said either?
    If youre asking if I though Ray Lewis was capable of lying to cover up what he did, yes. After everything, i dont think he did it and admitted to what he was guilty of. at the time, i certainly took what he said with a grain of salt. now with hindsight in my favor i dont need to.

    How do you know he continued to follow and/ or confronted him? That’s conjecture, at best.
    police reports? his own admittance? simple geography of where he started and where he ended up? the fact that they met face to face in the end? Im not sure im seeing where almost any of that is conjecture. he says he stopped following him at one point, but yet where the killing ended up is at another and off his path back to his car. like i said originally, at the very least hes guilty of at least meeting him half way, assuming they saw each other and walked towards each other. If thats not the case, it would seem he was still following or looking for him as his path leads towards Trayvons house.

    There was only one witness that I’ve heard say they saw someone screaming and that was Good, the only person that came outside during the fight. And why would Martin be screaming for help when he had no wounds on his body but the shot and bruising on his knuckles?
    then i guess i should question how closely youve been following . Im not questioning that Trayvon hit Zimmerman, thats a given but its possible he hit him and Zimmerman pulled out his gun, to which couldve scared Trayvon to yell for help (and possibly stopped the fight before needing to fire the weapon). Even Good himself stated he wasnt sure who was yelling. Selma Moras testimony has Zimmerman on top of Trayvon, not the other way around. She was outside on her porch as well. All of that doesnt even matter to me. Its the initial meeting and who was the first to make physical contact. which again, theres nothing to support one way or another.

    youre not the only one that has taken Good's testimony and just ignored Mora's. maybe because it was in Spanish and translated its less credible? honestly I have no idea whats driving that. She seems credible to me and was in just as good of a position as Good was ultimately.

    He didn’t know he was black until after he called, at least that’s how it sounds on the call to the police to report a suspicious person
    he said "I think hes black". so no, he had a pretty good idea he was black or at the very least assumed he was. either way, a guy walking through the neighborhood with a hoody was enough to call the police and assume he was up to something and worth following around the development. That along with doing so 50+ other times says all I need to know about Zimmerman.
    Last edited by JAB1985; 07-01-2013 at 10:31 AM.
    -JAB




  7. #37

    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    The reason we can surmise Trayvon confronted Zimmerman is because otherwise he had plenty of time to get to his supposed destination. Plenty of time.




  8. #38
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    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    Besides the point that everybodies testimony starts after they heard yelling and/or fighting. Nobodies testimony has any reflection on the initial meeting between the two, besides Jeantel, who ive not really been using despite her testimony strongly favoring that Zimmerman confronted Tayvon. I dont think we know anything about that first moment which is exactly what we need to for a conclusion.
    Not testimony. Time stamped calls to 911 and cell phone records show there was little to no time. Besides, you think Zimmerman is guilty simply because Martin wasn't big enough to be considered a deadly weapon, but he's big enough to get out of being mounted while on his stomach reverse positions and get the better of Zimerman?


    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    If youre asking if I though Ray Lewis was capable of lying to cover up what he did, yes. After everything, i dont think he did it and admitted to what he was guilty of. at the time, i certainly took what he said with a grain of salt. now with hindsight in my favor i dont need to.
    NO, I'm asking if you think simply because someone is charged nothing they say is credible or true.


    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    police reports? his own admittance? simple geography of where he started and where he ended up? the fact that they met face to face in the end? Im not sure im seeing where almost any of that is conjecture. he says he stopped following him at one point, but yet where the killing ended up is at another and off his path back to his car. like i said originally, at the very least hes guilty of at least meeting him half way, assuming they saw each other and walked towards each other. If thats not the case, it would seem he was still following or looking for him as his path leads towards Trayvons house.
    It's conjecture because you're drawing a conclusion based of guess work, pretty uch the definition of conjecture. The way you stated it it's as if Zimmerman followed the whole time and then confronted Martin. a) we have no evidence of that b) see my earlier post about the 911 operator asking Zimmerman if he was following ans asking him to not do that

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    then i guess i should question how closely youve been following . Im not questioning that Trayvon hit Zimmerman, thats a given but its possible he hit him and Zimmerman pulled out his gun, to which couldve scared Trayvon to yell for help (and possibly stopped the fight before needing to fire the weapon). Even Good himself stated he wasnt sure who was yelling. Selma Moras testimony has Zimmerman on top of Trayvon, not the other way around. She was outside on her porch as well. All of that doesnt even matter to me. Its the initial meeting and who was the first to make physical contact. which again, theres nothing to support one way or another.
    I didn't hear all of her's I was at work. But I have to ask, why you think he's guilty if there is no proof of who started the fight?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    youre not the only one that has taken Good's testimony and just ignored Mora's. maybe because it was in Spanish and translated its less credible? honestly I have no idea whats driving that. She seems credible to me and was in just as good of a position as Good was ultimately.
    Again, I didn't hear all of her's or his for that matter. But his is more credible to me cause he came out and yelled at them while they were feet away from him.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    he said "I think hes black". so no, he had a pretty good idea he was black or at the very least assumed he was. either way, a guy walking through the neighborhood with a hoody was enough to call the police and assume he was up to something and worth following around the development. That along with doing so 50+ other times says all I need to know about Zimmerman.
    Thank god you're not on the jury. He was a neighborhood watch captain, that was asked to be the captain. He said "he looks black" only after being asked. HE didn't call saying he there's this suspicious looking black guy wondering around.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  9. #39

    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Not testimony. Time stamped calls to 911 and cell phone records show there was little to no time. Besides, you think Zimmerman is guilty simply because Martin wasn't big enough to be considered a deadly weapon, but he's big enough to get out of being mounted while on his stomach reverse positions and get the better of Zimerman?
    He was unarmed and 40lbs lighter. To my recollection theres not too many states that will declare that a deadly weapon unless trained in combat sports (which i found all the mma talk interesting for that reason).

    NO, I'm asking if you think simply because someone is charged nothing they say is credible or true.
    Id say what they say isnt the end all be all of testimony. Theyre the ones with the most to lose so therefore the most likely to lie or distort truth.

    It's conjecture because you're drawing a conclusion based of guess work, pretty uch the definition of conjecture. The way you stated it it's as if Zimmerman followed the whole time and then confronted Martin. a) we have no evidence of that b) see my earlier post about the 911 operator asking Zimmerman if he was following ans asking him to not do that
    What guess work? He was on the phone telling the operator he was following him. When trayvon ran away he got out and ran after him. The police report clearly traces his steps and when he hung up "to go back to his truck" and wait for police he went in a complete different direction from his truck and towards trayvons house. Theres no conjecture there, those are all things that happened. He says trayvon jumped him. Nobody else witnessed it. My conjecture, is that i think zimmerman tried to take things into his own hands and apprehend him. I have no proof of that, but thats what i think from his actions of calling into police so much and statements like "they always get away".

    I didn't hear all of her's I was at work. But I have to ask, why you think he's guilty if there is no proof of who started the fight?
    Again, I didn't hear all of her's or his for that matter. But his is more credible to me cause he came out and yelled at them while they were feet away from him.
    so you havent heard one of the biggest witnesses for the prosecution yet throw jabs at me for not knowing what im talking about? Seems your opinion is based off less information than mine which im not sure how you can crticize me for. Which btw, ive been very clear that i dont doubt its possible things happen liked you say, i simply think they happened another. Ive been pretty clear i have no proof of what happened at the beginning, nobody does. Its all conjecture on those first seconds. You certainly seem to think you have proof, but i assure you that you dont. Just opinion and in this case it coincides with the defendent. I have no issue with that.

    Thank god you're not on the jury. He was a neighborhood watch captain, that was asked to be the captain. He said "he looks black" only after being asked. HE didn't call saying he there's this suspicious looking black guy wondering around.
    Im not sure why you continue to be so condenscending. The reason they used his previous phone calls was to set a precedent that the guy judged and profiled before. Just walking through his neoghborhood deemed you up to no good. Black white whatever. Because he didnt say black when calling doesnt mean he didnt profile. Honestly hes assumed a lot of civilians were criminals for no reason over the last year and a half. Having had my house broken into i get the feeling of vulnerability that comes with that, with zimmerman i believe that fueled him to be untrusting of anyone and eventually to go over the edge and confront ortry to apprehend so he didnt get away. Serinos testimony basically suported that a guy afraid for his life doesnt get out of his truck and follow him, which he did, atleast initially.
    Last edited by JAB1985; 07-01-2013 at 07:32 PM.
    -JAB




  10. #40

    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    The only thing that matters in this case at all, assuming the relevant law actually matters (and not some nebulous sense of social 'justice' that allows one to ignore the law when one feels the need), is whether it is reasonable to believe that Zimmerman could have been in fear of death or 'great bodily harm' and was unable to escape that fear without using his gun. That is the only relevant issue.

    To that point, his injuries, body positioning (whether or not mounted), and any threats from Trayvon ('you're going to die', etc) are all that matters. The latter can never be proven or disproven. The former speak for themselves. And body positioning is being debated/disputed by different witnesses.

    'Profiling' doesn't matter. Whether Zimmerman was following Trayvon doesn't matter. And according to the law, whether Zimmerman or Trayvon threw the first punch doesn't even matter. And as for that last issue, the evidence and timeline absolutely indicate Trayvon stayed around for a confrontation versus simply entering his destination (as he had more than ample time to do).
    Last edited by Haloti92; 07-01-2013 at 08:35 PM.




  11. #41
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    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    He was unarmed and 40lbs lighter. To my recollection theres not too many states that will declare that a deadly weapon unless trained in combat sports (which i found all the mma talk interesting for that reason).
    Unarmed and 40lbs lighter but big enough to get out of a mounted position and turn the tables?


    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    Id say what they say isnt the end all be all of testimony. Theyre the ones with the most to lose so therefore the most likely to lie or distort truth.
    I’ve heard this story several times, many before he was even charged. As did the lead investigator who pretty much said today other than some minor inconsistencies he seemed truthful.


    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    What guess work? He was on the phone telling the operator he was following him. When trayvon ran away he got out and ran after him. The police report clearly traces his steps and when he hung up "to go back to his truck" and wait for police he went in a complete different direction from his truck and towards trayvons house. Theres no conjecture there, those are all things that happened. He says trayvon jumped him. Nobody else witnessed it. My conjecture, is that i think zimmerman tried to take things into his own hands and apprehend him. I have no proof of that, but thats what i think from his actions of calling into police so much and statements like "they always get away".
    Guess work saying “he continued to follow him” His truck was close to where the fight took place, he said he was walking back to it after looking for an address and by all accounts that seems at least plausible..

    I noticed today from investigator Serino that Martin’s house where Rachel Jentiel said he was at when the hung up the phone or it hung up, is at the other end of the row of townhouses from where the fight took place. So either Martin lied, misspoke, didn’t know where he was or he could have seen Zimerman walking back to his truck after looking for an address and confronted him. Of the 4 the first 3 seem the least likely.


    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    so you havent heard one of the biggest witnesses for the prosecution yet throw jabs at me for not knowing what im talking about? Seems your opinion is based off less information than mine which im not sure how you can crticize me for. Which btw, ive been very clear that i dont doubt its possible things happen liked you say, i simply think they happened another. Ive been pretty clear i have no proof of what happened at the beginning, nobody does. Its all conjecture on those first seconds. You certainly seem to think you have proof, but i assure you that you dont. Just opinion and in this case it coincides with the defendent. I have no issue with that.
    I said I didn’t hear all of it. I did hear her say the man on the top got up walked around and was holding his head and his side. So if that was before the shot that means Martin laid there while Zimmerman walked around after getting beat up got up and than got shot by Zimmerman.



    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    Im not sure why you continue to be so condenscending. The reason they used his previous phone calls was to set a precedent that the guy judged and profiled before. Just walking through his neoghborhood deemed you up to no good. Black white whatever. Because he didnt say black when calling doesnt mean he didnt profile. Honestly hes assumed a lot of civilians were criminals for no reason over the last year and a half. Having had my house broken into i get the feeling of vulnerability that comes with that, with zimmerman i believe that fueled him to be untrusting of anyone and eventually to go over the edge and confront ortry to apprehend so he didnt get away. Serinos testimony basically suported that a guy afraid for his life doesnt get out of his truck and follow him, which he did, atleast initially.
    I’m not being condescending. You said he called the police 50 times and “that tells you all you need to know about Zimmerman” thus… he has to be guilty.

    By the way just what is it you think he is guilty of?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  12. #42
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    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    The only thing that matters in this case at all, assuming the relevant law actually matters (and not some nebulous sense of social 'justice' that allows one to ignore the law when one feels the need), is whether it is reasonable to believe that Zimmerman could have been in fear of death or 'great bodily harm' and was unable to escape that fear without using his gun. That is the only relevant issue.

    To that point, his injuries, body positioning (whether or not mounted), and any threats from Trayvon ('you're going to die', etc) are all that matters. The latter can never be proven or disproven. The former speak for themselves. And body positioning is being debated/disputed by different witnesses.

    'Profiling' doesn't matter. Whether Zimmerman was following Trayvon doesn't matter. And according to the law, whether Zimmerman or Trayvon threw the first punch doesn't even matter. And as for that last issue, the evidence and timeline absolutely indicate Trayvon stayed around for a confrontation versus simply entering his destination (as he had more than ample time to do).


    Said the same to my brother today. He said that Zimmerman's mistake was getting out and following Martin. I said, when is that against the law?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  13. #43
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    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    I've been wondering since when is following someone a bad thing?

    Are people hired to be neighborhood watchmen supposed to be stationary and non observant?
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  14. #44
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    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    THIS:

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    The state is unlikely to prevail in arguing Zimmerman was the aggressor because to be the aggressor, Zimmerman had to contemporaneously provoke the force Martin used against him. Zimmermanís profiling of Martin and call to the non-emergency number were not contemporaneous with Martinís attack. Even if the state could convince a judge or jury that Zimmerman was following Martin, rather than walking back to his car, rendering his pursuit a contemporaneous act, it is not an act that provokes Martinís use of force against him. Demanding someone account for their presence does not provoke the use of force. Even if it could be construed to be provocation for using force, all it means is Zimmerman had to attempt reasonable means to extricate himself before using deadly force in response. W-6′s steadfast insistence that Zimmerman was struggling to get up and out from under Trayvon, right before the shot went off, fulfills that requirement. Zimmerman will say the same. And no witnesses saw anything different.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



    http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/burtli...erman-is-weak/




  15. #45
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    Re: George Zimmerman Trial

    Okay what am I missing here? It seems to be pretty clear she is talking about after the shot.

    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




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