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  1. #31
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    Re: No Debate Necessary- Baltimore Ravens Mount Rushmore



    1st Mountain: Ray, Ogden, Reed, Newsome

    2nd Mountain: Flacco, Jamal, Suggs, Harbaugh

    3rd Mountain: Modell, McAllister, Ngata, Boulware

    4th Mountain: Stover, Gregg, Heap, Rice

    5th Mountain: Thomas, Johnson, Burnett, McCrary




  2. #32
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    Re: No Debate Necessary- Baltimore Ravens Mount Rushmore

    Quote Originally Posted by ravensnhokies View Post
    I'm not picking on anyone that thinks Stover belongs, but I just don't get it....

    I've met Matt a bunch a times, and had conversations with him. Super nice guy. Big fan of his. He is one of the all time Raven greats. But in terms of Face of the Franchise for the Ravens who have been superb in their 17 years ... No way. He is still only a Kicker.

    The difference between Matt and your standard run of mill guy was about 3-4 kicks/yr inside the 40. Honestly, is that a transcendental type player? Outside the 40, Matt was pretty average (outside 45 -- I'd say below). The big factor was the Ravens offense was so shitty inside the 25, that they had to kick FGs all the time. And Matt was steady and reliable. But again Matt was slightly more reliable than your average NFL kicker. If a kicker is gonna make your FotF list, he better have made multiple Adam Vinatieri type clutch kicks in the playoffs. Matt made 2 --- 2009 Div against Titans, and the 47yd in SB35 (if you wanna include the 51yder in the Colts 2007 Div Lost... that was clutch too). I remember the misses too. The 36yd gimme against the Raiders in the 2001 AFCC, and he also missed a 41yder in SB35.

    My Face of the Franchise... Ray, JO, Oz, and Reed (right now). If Joe plays 8 more years and wins another SB, he'll take Ed's place.
    To me it's because they would've never won the first SB without Stover. There were several games where he scored every point. I know it took Jamal Lewis and company to get in position and the defense was the true difference maker that year; but Stover was the whole offense for some games. You could say this for several years but in that year it helped them go all the way. But I get that some don't want to put a kicker on the list.

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  3. #33

    Re: No Debate Necessary- Baltimore Ravens Mount Rushmore

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    To me it's because they would've never won the first SB without Stover. There were several games where he scored every point. I know it took Jamal Lewis and company to get in position and the defense was the true difference maker that year; but Stover was the whole offense for some games. You could say this for several years but in that year it helped them go all the way. But I get that some don't want to put a kicker on the list.

    see sig
    Not that I want to dispel the fact that Matt was important to the 2000 SB run, he was... but I'm convinced we would have won the SB even without Matt and had an average kicker. Hell even Billy Cundiff. By the way, Matt was 7th in FG % in 2000, so he wasn't the best.

    At absolute worst, the difference between a good kicker, Matt Stover in 2000, and a bad one, would be a max of 1-2 FGs/game. The only regular season games the score differential was 3-6 pts were the 1st Jags 39-36, 2nd Jags 15-10, & 2nd Titans 24-23. In the 1st one... Matt only attempted 1 a 44yder while Mike Hollis went 5 for 5. I'm gonna bet any NFL quality kicker could make a 44yd at home in perfect weather so that's a W. The 2nd Jags game...Matt went 5 for 5, 3 inside 35, & a 43yder & a 47yder. So I'd say the run of mill guy goes 4 for 5. Still we'd win. The 2nd Titans game, even though Matt only made a 45yder... I'm gonna assume a Cundiff type missed it and the Ravens ultimately lose that game (and that's a big assumption). So the Ravens end up 11-5 with a crappy kicker. We'd tie the Broncos. I don't know what the tiebreaker would be since they'd have the same conference record, so again worst case, assume we'd have to go to Denver to beat the Gus Frerotte led Broncos. We would have won that game in Denver too. We would have then beat the Titans, then the Raiders, and then the Giants all with an average kicker (even a crappy one)
    Last edited by ravensnhokies; 06-29-2013 at 01:41 PM.




  4. #34

    Re: No Debate Necessary- Baltimore Ravens Mount Rushmore

    Quote Originally Posted by ursula View Post
    1st Mountain: Ray, Ogden, Reed, Newsome

    2nd Mountain: Flacco, Jamal, Suggs, Harbaugh

    3rd Mountain: Modell, McAllister, Ngata, Boulware

    4th Mountain: Stover, Gregg, Heap, Rice

    5th Mountain: Thomas, Johnson, Burnett, McCrary
    I'd throw Billick in there somewhere, but other than that I agree
    Formerly runrayrun27

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  5. #35
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    Re: No Debate Necessary- Baltimore Ravens Mount Rushmore

    Does the fact that Stover was not homegrown play a role in the thinking of some (Just throwing that out there to spark debate)?
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  6. #36
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    Re: No Debate Necessary- Baltimore Ravens Mount Rushmore

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    Does the fact that Stover was not homegrown play a role in the thinking of some (Just throwing that out there to spark debate)?
    I think it's more the fact that he's a kicker, honestly. He deserves due respect for a couple things:

    1. Long tenured Raven
    2. One of the best at his position
    3. Very upstanding guy
    4. Our "lifeboat" during the lean offense years

    But, is he going to the HOF as a kicker? No. That's because the league doesn't place a premium on kickers. In the HOF, there are 10 guys listed as kickers. 9 of them also played other positions in their careers. The last two kickers were selected in 2011...and 1991. A gap of 20 years. Morten Andersen, who holds the NFL record for most field goals in a career, was a semi-finalist this year, but did not make the cut to 15.

    I think kickers are just viewed as guys who aren't going to be the cornerstone of your franchise. To me, Stover is an honorable mention guy. I hold him in VERY high regard for his leadership, his performance, and his character. But if you are putting out the guys who represent your whole franchise, kicker just doesn't seem to make much sense when you have one HOF, 2 guys destined for HOF, a RB who gained the 3rd most yards in a single season, a SB winning QB who has the most road playoff wins ever and is among tops for wins in his first 5 years...If this was players only, Stover comes a lot closer to making it. But if you include non-players, I'd have to value Newsome, Modell, Bisciotti above him. In a few years, hopefully, Harbaugh would also be on that list as well.
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    “When I think of a Baltimore Raven - we go in there, we take your lunch box, we take your sandwich, we take your juice box, we take your applesauce, and we take your spork and we break it. And we leave you with an empty lunch. That’s the Baltimore Raven way.” - Steve Smith Sr.


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  7. #37

    Re: No Debate Necessary- Baltimore Ravens Mount Rushmore

    Ray Lewis
    Jamal Lewis
    Ed Reed
    Joe Flacco
    In a 2003 BBC poll that asked Brits to name the "Greatest American Ever", Mr. T came in fourth, behind ML King (3rd), Abe Lincoln (2nd) and Homer Simpson (1st).




  8. #38
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    Re: No Debate Necessary- Baltimore Ravens Mount Rushmore

    I can certainly understand Florio's insertion of Joe Flacco, into their Mount Rushmore. He's essentially saying that it wasn't a fluke that they started having all of this consistent success once Joe came along, and admitted that Joe carried the team on his back this past postseason.

    If you think about it, the Ravens have had at least two different rush offenses and defenses better than any they've had since Joe got here, but weren't able to muster a single playoff victory in seven years before Joe arrived. Actually, the five postseason appearances they've had under Joe is more than they had in all of their years combined without him(The Super Bowl run, the year after the Super Bowl run, the 2,000 yard season and the 13-3 season).
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  9. #39
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    Re: No Debate Necessary- Baltimore Ravens Mount Rushmore

    Quote Originally Posted by Mista T View Post
    Ray Lewis
    Jamal Lewis
    Ed Reed
    Joe Flacco
    Please explain how you omit Jon Ogden, a HOFer, and insert Jamal Lewis?


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  10. #40

    Re: No Debate Necessary- Baltimore Ravens Mount Rushmore

    Quote Originally Posted by camdenyard View Post
    Please explain how you omit Jon Ogden, a HOFer, and insert Jamal Lewis?
    Jamal has the all-time 2nd greatest rushing yard season in NFL history. Moreover, his running helped win more Ravens games than JO's blocking. Just my opinion! In any event, I prefer being argumentative to merely nodding my head in agreement.

    Just the reverse: on my mythical Colts Mt. Rushmore, I have Johnny U, Ray Berry, Gino Marchetti, and -- ahead of Lenny Moore -- Jim Parker. I believe Parker's blocking was a bigger contributor to the Colts' success than Moore's running, receiving, and dancing into the end zone. I believe that there's a good argument that Parker may have been the best lineman to ever play in the NFL.
    In a 2003 BBC poll that asked Brits to name the "Greatest American Ever", Mr. T came in fourth, behind ML King (3rd), Abe Lincoln (2nd) and Homer Simpson (1st).




  11. #41

    Re: No Debate Necessary- Baltimore Ravens Mount Rushmore

    Three players either are or will be first ballot HOFers are locks in my mind. It's the highest honor a player can receive and a credible measure of a successful career. This is an easy way to separate the three greatest Ravens from everyone else.

    After Ogden, Reed and Lewis, I'm not going to argue too strongly on the 4th. Ozzie is great, but I would probably replace him first if we have another certain HOF player emerge. I'm obviously a big Ozzie supporter, but similar to Stover, I would value on the field performance higher.




  12. #42
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    Re: No Debate Necessary- Baltimore Ravens Mount Rushmore

    Quote Originally Posted by Mista T View Post
    Jamal has the all-time 2nd greatest rushing yard season in NFL history. Moreover, his running helped win more Ravens games than JO's blocking. Just my opinion! In any event, I prefer being argumentative to merely nodding my head in agreement.
    Point of order...3rd now. AP fell just 7 yards short of Dickerson's record, making him 2nd and 31 yards ahead of Jamal.

    I think JO gets it over Jamal for consistency. Unfortunately for him, he never got to block for a franchise QB to make him look better. He kept a ton of mediocre to okay QBs upright. Jamal had a couple good years, but broke down quickly. His 2000 season was good, his 2002 season was a comeback from ACL year but still good, 2003 was his 2000+ season, 2004 was the year he dealt with his suspension. 2005 was a down year, and 2006 he was okay. Those last two years his YPC was down in the 3s, had been 4-5 in 2000, 2002-2004. So really, you've got 3 good seasons in 2000, 2002, 2003?
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    “When I think of a Baltimore Raven - we go in there, we take your lunch box, we take your sandwich, we take your juice box, we take your applesauce, and we take your spork and we break it. And we leave you with an empty lunch. That’s the Baltimore Raven way.” - Steve Smith Sr.


    Call me a Special Teams coach again. I dare you! I double dare you, MFer!




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