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  1. #31
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    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez



    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenous1 View Post
    I once read that if you take Mantles numbers and project them out even at 70% of what they were for when he was healthy he would have shattered most meaningful slugging records.

    No Yanks fan but you have to respect the talent the man had. He had mad skills
    And this is exactly to the point with Gronk. If you project him at his best over a 15 year NFL career, he will breeze by Tony G. But you just can't do that. Being healthy huge for all athletes. And some are better at it than others.

    How is it that Ben R has missed SEVEN games against the Ravens already? It hasn't been the same one injury. It's been that the guy can't stay healthy.

    No matter how good The Mick was on the field, on the bench he might as well be Mario Mendoza. Similarly, Billy Bajema can sit on the sidelines and watch football as well as Gronk. Ability is no good without DURAbility.
    "Leave. Your. Mark."




  2. #32

    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    I think it would be interesting to see what Gronkowski and Hernandez would do in a Cam Cameron offense.
    Hernandez? Certainly not what he has?

    Gronk, I see almost no reason to think he would do much of anythign diferently then he has. he is a total package E that fits into Cam's offense better then any player we had here during his tenure.




  3. #33
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    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Speaking of CAM, I read somewhere that he told Oz he didn't want Gronk
    because he didn't fit into his offense. Whatever, Gronk wasn't on Ozzie's
    radar and somewhere Oz is laughing at this thread.






  4. #34
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    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Hernandez? Certainly not what he has?

    Gronk, I see almost no reason to think he would do much of anythign diferently then he has. he is a total package E that fits into Cam's offense better then any player we had here during his tenure.
    If you really think that, you should check out the number of times each guy (Gronkowski, Hernandez, Pitta, Dickson) was targeted. The difference is astounding, and I don't think it is merely due to the talent levels. The fact is that the Ravens' offense ran through Ray Rice; the Patriots offense ran through a short passing game (Welker, Gronkowski, Hernandez). That wouldn't change if the players were wearing different uniforms. There is no way Cam Cameron would have targeted Gronkowski/Hernandez a combined 237 times in a single year. No way.




  5. #35

    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Hernandez? Certainly not what he has?

    Gronk, I see almost no reason to think he would do much of anythign diferently then he has. he is a total package E that fits into Cam's offense better then any player we had here during his tenure.
    You are overvaluing Gronk in the Ravens offense. Look at the draft metrics of both players and they are damn near identical. Gronk is an inch and a half taller and 13lbs heavier. His athleticism at that size is impressive. Yes Gronk when healthy is a better player. Yes he is a better blocker. If you had the players switch teams Pitta would have better stats on NWE than what Gronk would have on the Ravens under Cam. New England has run a spread offense that relies heavily on passing. The Ravens have been running the complete opposite. The opportunities for catches are far greater in NWEs offense. Pitta would have gone to a few pro bowls if he were in New England. Pitta may very well end up in one this year with the Ravens. Definitely would take Gronk healthy but the offense numbers are a result of the offenses in which they play. I do think Gronk would have been a better fit for the Ravens and not because of his catching ability but because of his blocking ability. He would have been better at blocking the run. His catches would more than likely have been similar to those of Pitta. Maybe slightly better.




  6. #36

    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by alien bird View Post
    If you really think that, you should check out the number of times each guy (Gronkowski, Hernandez, Pitta, Dickson) was targeted. The difference is astounding, and I don't think it is merely due to the talent levels. The fact is that the Ravens' offense ran through Ray Rice; the Patriots offense ran through a short passing game (Welker, Gronkowski, Hernandez). That wouldn't change if the players were wearing different uniforms. There is no way Cam Cameron would have targeted Gronkowski/Hernandez a combined 237 times in a single year. No way.

    Again, I'm with you on Hernandez...
    But Gronk is a supreme talent, that can block his arse off, and creates matchup problems beyond any other player in the league. Hisstats mightbe marginally lower due to a few less targets, but not by leaps and bounds for sure. Without a doubt in my mind he would be targetd more then Pitta and Dickoncombined were.




  7. #37

    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by srobert96 View Post
    You are overvaluing Gronk in the Ravens offense. Look at the draft metrics of both players and they are damn near identical. Gronk is an inch and a half taller and 13lbs heavier. His athleticism at that size is impressive. Yes Gronk when healthy is a better player. Yes he is a better blocker. If you had the players switch teams Pitta would have better stats on NWE than what Gronk would have on the Ravens under Cam. New England has run a spread offense that relies heavily on passing. The Ravens have been running the complete opposite. The opportunities for catches are far greater in NWEs offense. Pitta would have gone to a few pro bowls if he were in New England. Pitta may very well end up in one this year with the Ravens. Definitely would take Gronk healthy but the offense numbers are a result of the offenses in which they play. I do think Gronk would have been a better fit for the Ravens and not because of his catching ability but because of his blocking ability. He would have been better at blocking the run. His catches would more than likely have been similar to those of Pitta. Maybe slightly better.
    That is a deramatic overvaluation of Pitta.

    "yes his blocking is better"... lol... on a scale of 1-10, Gronk is a 9, Pitta might be a 2...

    His catch radius is MUCH larger, hands are similar, athleticism tilts towards Gronk... routes, tilt towards Gronk, size as well... The sum of the parts is SIGNIFICANTLY greater.




  8. #38
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    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Again, I'm with you on Hernandez...
    But Gronk is a supreme talent....
    No doubt. But if that supreme talent is oft-injured and sitting on the sidelines, that really negates his value to a team. Time will tell.




  9. #39

    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by alien bird View Post
    No doubt. But if that supreme talent is oft-injured and sitting on the sidelines, that really negates his value to a team. Time will tell.
    And as of thus far, last year was the only of his three he even missed a regular season game.




  10. #40
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    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by BillickFan View Post
    After a few years of looking at the 2 teams & how they've employed 2 TE's, I'm awfully glad we picked Pitta & Dickson in that draft. Gronk - can't stay healthy, but is a beast when he is. Hernandez - we will see what the legal process bears out, but it's not looking good initially. I'll reserve judgment until more facts roll in, but I'm liking our 2 TE's right about now.........

    Draft: Gronk had injury concerns that caused him to slide. Hernandez had character issues. Pitta appears to be a great guy & he can flat out play. Dickson has some drops & I lose patience with him, but this year (a contract year for him) will determine if he sticks around or gets replaced by a younger version with better hands.

    Thanks for picking the right guys, Ozzie! Again.......
    That's why drafting players with ? marks is what it is. Ravens got the better end of the deal. One SB and should be 2 if not for Evans/Cundiff. Hernandez by the looks of things is going down with one charge or another, Gronk can't stay healthy (reason why he dropped in the draft)...now back surgery (iffy at best).




  11. #41

    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    That is a deramatic overvaluation of Pitta.

    "yes his blocking is better"... lol... on a scale of 1-10, Gronk is a 9, Pitta might be a 2...

    His catch radius is MUCH larger, hands are similar, athleticism tilts towards Gronk... routes, tilt towards Gronk, size as well... The sum of the parts is SIGNIFICANTLY greater.
    Pitt is a damn good receiving TE. He was a terrible blocker who has improved. Your love of Gronk is amusing. You lose all credibiilty when you say a TE would have resulted in 2-3 Super Bowls. How many Super Bowls has NWE won with Gronk? And that is with him putting up record numbers. Maybe with Gronk blocking on kicks Cundiff doesn't miss the FG or Lee Evans doesn't drop the damn ball. But hey with Gronk we would be going for our 4th ship.




  12. #42
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    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    And as of thus far, last year was the only of his three he even missed a regular season game.
    You are exactly right, and that's why I qualified my statement with, "time will tell". I don't know how it will turn out, but I would think that a team investing an early pick in a player wants that player to last more than three or four years.




  13. #43
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    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Hold on here, why are so many people evaluating Gronkowski's 15-year potential?

    Sure, he had back issues in college that might plague him through his NFL career. Say he only gets to go 7-8 years instead of 15 (which is super-rare for a TE, a position that gets banged up a lot). So what?

    Is it worth a second-round pick to get someone who will ONLY be a superstar for 5-6 years? Who will ONLY help you to championships for a brief time? If you're a team in the gutter, maybe not, but a team of the verge of a title that needs a legit receiving threat to get over the top... I don't care if it's a brief window, I'm taking it.

    Even if you decide that you can't afford to give the guy a huge contract because you're worried about injuries or you have long-term cap issues, you can hold on to him for four years on his rookie deal, franchise him on the fifth year, and maybe even afford to do it again for year six, where you evaluate if you can get anything for him in trade.

    Are we really sitting here debating whether or not Gronk would have helped us? The team which missed out on a 2011 title shot because our go-to end-zone receiver for the season's biggest play was LEE EVANS, who DROPPED THE BALL?

    It's pretty reasonable to believe that with Gronk on board, Joe's first title would have been earlier than this year, and he might have multiple rings right now.

    (Yes, I know Gronk didn't finish the season healthy the past two years, but as mentioned earlier, the injuries that kept him down had nothing to do with his back, or any other ailment that could be projected from college. They were NFL injuries that could have happened to anyone, including Dickson or Pitta.)




  14. #44

    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by srobert96 View Post
    Pitt is a damn good receiving TE. He was a terrible blocker who has improved. Your love of Gronk is amusing. You lose all credibiilty when you say a TE would have resulted in 2-3 Super Bowls. How many Super Bowls has NWE won with Gronk? And that is with him putting up record numbers. Maybe with Gronk blocking on kicks Cundiff doesn't miss the FG or Lee Evans doesn't drop the damn ball. But hey with Gronk we would be going for our 4th ship.
    Sure Pitta is good, borderline top 10.

    I didn't say that Gron WOULD have resulted in 2-3 SB's, simply that he MIGHT HAVE. He is the biggest matchup problem in all of football. IF he's on our side and not NE's they aren't close in that game you speak of, and Lee Evans liekly wouldn't have ever been acquired.

    Amusing? he is BY FAR the best TE in football. BY A LOT...




  15. #45
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    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabrosin View Post
    Hold on here, why are so many people evaluating Gronkowski's 15-year potential?

    Sure, he had back issues in college that might plague him through his NFL career. Say he only gets to go 7-8 years instead of 15 (which is super-rare for a TE, a position that gets banged up a lot). So what?

    Is it worth a second-round pick to get someone who will ONLY be a superstar for 5-6 years?
    That's really not the discussion - at least from my end. The discussion is whether or not Gronkowski alone is worth more than every player the Ravens drafted that year - not whether or not he was worth a 2nd rounder. That was the claim, and I'm simply saying that three years is too early to definitively state that.




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