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  1. #37
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    Re: Flacco #100 on PFF's Top 101 of 2012 (and why it's ridiculous)



    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Bru View Post
    I think you are missing a bigger mix up, Ray Rice is listed at #92.

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...the-full-list/
    I think it's further proof that this list is stupid.
    "Screw it, let's ride"!




  2. #38

    Re: Flacco #100 on PFF's Top 101 of 2012 (and why it's ridiculous)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Van Cleef View Post
    The thing that amuses me most is around the time of the first Denver game and the Houston game last year people around here were ready to cut Flacco loose because he wasn't getting the job done. It took one of the greatest string of post season performances in history for people to really get behind him, and now it's hyperbole city, and the majority of the season is forgotten.

    They're saying that Flacco is in the top ..what? Fifteen percent of players in the league? They aren't calling him a chump. As much as I love Joe for that run he had, I still want to see him perform to a good level more consistently and when he has off games, they end up being more mediocre, not awful.
    I think it comes down to if you feel thats all on joe or was on cam. I think amd have somewhat been proven that joes always had the tools but not given the offense to excel. The problem with this article is the hypocricy to applaud one player for stepping up and not another along witb what leach said about QBs being listed above that accomplished less this season.

    I think PFF is interesting. Ill give it that. I just dont like that some take it to be the end all be all of football and whatever they say is undebatable. Because you know, stats and stuff. I let my eyes be the judge and over the years theyve rarely led me astray as to whos a player and who isnt but alas thats just my opinion which everyone is entitled to.

    Honestly i think hes top 5 at QB, which with the extra importance of the position being 100 comes off ridiculous. Id at the very least say top 50 overall is more inline. Having boldin that much higher than the QB that throws him the ball, in admitted tight windows due to separation problems is just a horrible ranking. Again, imo.
    -JAB




  3. #39

    Re: Flacco #100 on PFF's Top 101 of 2012 (and why it's ridiculous)

    Well, at least he made the list. It gives Joe another opportunity to have another successful year and make complete asses out of anyone who says Flacco can't get better or improve. This list will look different next year. How long can the talking heads continue to look like total asswipes?




  4. #40
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    Re: Flacco #100 on PFF's Top 101 of 2012 (and why it's ridiculous)

    Well, if all the Ravens' players suck and they still won the Super Bowl, then when the list of best coaches come out, John Harbaugh must be #1. He did so much with so little talent.

    The bottom line is that NFL football isn't a game of individuals, it's a team game. So who give a rats' ass where individuals are listed? The only ranking that matters is the one where there is a team holding a Lombardi at the end. The Ravens are #1 on that list. Any other list is irrelevant.




  5. #41
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    Re: Flacco #100 on PFF's Top 101 of 2012 (and why it's ridiculous)

    I stopped reading when I seen Watt listed above a guy that was 8yds away from breaking E.D.'s rushing record.
    "What would you give for the man beside you?"




  6. #42
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    Re: Flacco #100 on PFF's Top 101 of 2012 (and why it's ridiculous)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Van Cleef View Post
    I think people around here have a persecution complex, which is evidenced by the countless threads every season about articles by and comments of journalists which say something negative about the team.

    This forum is Rodney Dangerfield.




  7. #43

    Re: Flacco #100 on PFF's Top 101 of 2012 (and why it's ridiculous)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cj34 View Post
    The fact that Bolden is the second highest Raven of last year tells you all you need to know about that list. It's a pile of crap.

    Look at this hypocrisy....

    63. Anquan Boldin, WR, Baltimore Ravens (Unranked)

    Thereís a lot of talk about Boldin being a guy that canít get open. Be that as it may, heís still a guy who (with defenders all over him) makes tough catches that move the chains. And it was that ability that was one of the key differences in why it was the Ravens, and no other team, that won the Super Bowl last year. Really stepped it up in the postseason and thatís why he makes the list.

    So, he makes the list (and makes it 40 spots higher then Flacco) because he "stepped it up in post season". His regular season numbers were pedestrian. Now look at the bit under Flacco. Now they suddenly change the criteria for some reason.

    100. Joe Flacco, QB, Baltimore Ravens (Unranked)

    If this list were built solely on those four postseason games that culminated with the Ravensí quarterback hoisting the Lombardi Trophy, then Joe Flacco would rank right at the very top. But itís not, and there were 16 other games that canít be discounted where Flacco struggled with accuracy for a Ravens team that stumbled into the playoffs. Flacco was truly special in the playoffs, showing the kind of poise and knack for the big play that was integral in his team winning it all.

    H.Y.P.O.C.R.I.T.E.S
    Agreed.

    I like Boldin a lot but yes, less than 1000 yards, four TDs in the regular season and he is on this list, absurd.

    NFC West is so hyped.. at this point of the year.. Haha be my guest!




  8. #44
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    Re: Flacco #100 on PFF's Top 101 of 2012 (and why it's ridiculous)

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    I think it comes down to if you feel thats all on joe or was on cam. I think amd have somewhat been proven that joes always had the tools but not given the offense to excel. The problem with this article is the hypocricy to applaud one player for stepping up and not another along witb what leach said about QBs being listed above that accomplished less this season.

    I think PFF is interesting. Ill give it that. I just dont like that some take it to be the end all be all of football and whatever they say is undebatable. Because you know, stats and stuff. I let my eyes be the judge and over the years theyve rarely led me astray as to whos a player and who isnt but alas thats just my opinion which everyone is entitled to.

    Honestly i think hes top 5 at QB, which with the extra importance of the position being 100 comes off ridiculous. Id at the very least say top 50 overall is more inline. Having boldin that much higher than the QB that throws him the ball, in admitted tight windows due to separation problems is just a horrible ranking. Again, imo.
    But, and this gets harped on repeatedly when the PFF debate begins, they aren't doing statistical analysis. They are grading performance on each snap played against a consistent grading format.

    I don't think they are the bible, I try to watch as much as I can and form my own opinions, and often I find myself agreeing with their assessment. I honestly don't have a problem with Ryan being higher than Flacco like he is. The OP posted a selection of stats... Well I just had a look at the regular season stats for Ryan and Flacco (it's harder to compare CK as he only started 7 regular season games) ... this is what I took away:

    Flacco had 3 games with sub 50% completion, MR had none.
    Flacco had 6 games with a rating over 100, Ryan had 10. Both had 1 with a sub 50 rating.
    Flacco finished with 3817 passing yards and a 59.7% cmp to Ryan's 4719 and 68.6%.

    I can keep going with this and looking at all the stats the only thing that seems to lean towards Joe is Ryan had two games with more than 2 INTs, including an absolute debacle of a game with 5 INTs.

    Now, we can debate how much Cam affected this and all other sorts of things, but you can't judge a player on what he wasn't doing, you can only go by what he did. Over the course of the season Ryan was asked to do more and performed better. People around here seem to really have it in for him for simply being drafted the same year as Flacco and that he gets praise. He earns that praise. Why does everyone else still question Joe? For the same reasons we have, because of his inconsistency throughout the season. He went on a great run through the post-season, and again I will always love him for that and the wonderful memories his performances provided and won't take that away from him, but that is by far the exception in his career. People here are acting like it's the norm when it isn't.
    Last edited by Lee Van Cleef; 05-09-2013 at 04:16 AM.




  9. #45
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    Re: Flacco #100 on PFF's Top 101 of 2012 (and why it's ridiculous)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Van Cleef View Post
    But, and this gets harped on repeatedly when the PFF debate begins, they aren't doing statistical analysis. They are grading performance on each snap played against a consistent grading format.

    I don't think they are the bible, I try to watch as much as I can and form my own opinions, and often I find myself agreeing with their assessment. I honestly don't have a problem with Ryan being higher than Flacco like he is. The OP posted a selection of stats... Well I just had a look at the regular season stats for Ryan and Flacco (it's harder to compare CK as he only started 7 regular season games) ... this is what I took away:

    Flacco had 3 games with sub 50% completion, MR had none.
    Flacco had 6 games with a rating over 100, Ryan had 10. Both had 1 with a sub 50 rating.
    Flacco finished with 3817 passing yards and a 59.7% cmp to Ryan's 4719 and 68.6%.

    I can keep going with this and looking at all the stats the only thing that seems to lean towards Joe is Ryan had two games with more than 2 INTs, including an absolute debacle of a game with 5 INTs.

    Now, we can debate how much Cam affected this and all other sorts of things, but you can't judge a player on what he wasn't doing, you can only go by what he did. Over the course of the season Ryan was asked to do more and performed better. People around here seem to really have it in for him for simply being drafted the same year as Flacco and that he gets praise. He earns that praise. Why does everyone else still question Joe? For the same reasons we have, because of his inconsistency throughout the season. He went on a great run through the post-season, and again I will always love him for that and the wonderful memories his performances provided and won't take that away from him, but that is by far the exception in his career. People here are acting like it's the norm when it isn't.
    I agree with you here, PFF follow a consistent grading system, thats all they do. More times than not I tend to agree with them on things, especially blocking/rushing the passer/setting the edge etc. Thats not what the media show to us, they just show the highlights and the stats. There are some things I can't get my head over with them like rating Dumervile in the red, even though he's been the leagues most consistent pass rusher in productivity since 2009. They can poorly grade Dumervile all they want, but fact is, he gets to the QB on a regular basis, and thats all that really matters in the grand scheme of things. So thats when I find their grading system illogical at times, but most of the time, I agree with it.

    In Flacco's case, one thing that PFF don't obviously consider is the system. This is where Greg Cosell comes in. Cosell has watched every snap of Flacco's career, and he has gone on record to saying that no QB has to make the throws that Flacco is asked to make, and no QB has had a harder system to play in. More times than not, Flacco has to make throws into tight windows, and throw to receivers that aren't open. Our TE gets open more than any of our receivers including Boldin can, which isn't a very good thing. I like Torrey Smith, and think he is one year away from the same sort of standard that Mike Wallace is at. But lets face the facts here, even when Boldin was here, we've had tier 2/3 receivers, and a solid/reliable TE. We've had an inconsistent offensive line (2010, and regular season of 2012) in pass pro, which has also effected the run game too. Flacco has never even had a tier 1 receiver to throw to, nobody is close to being an elite number 1 target since Flacco was drafted, not even Boldin (despite what the media would want you to believe). Matt Ryan has had one of the most friendly QB situations since he was drafted. He has two elite receivers who could quite easily be a number 1 WR for any team in the NFL, oh and a future HOF at TE, he's had about the same standard of offensive line. He gets to play in a dome, in a typically weak division in terms of defense. Flacco plays in the windy and at times freezing cold Ohio, Baltimore, and Pittsburgh, all boasting stingy defenses too.

    So while I do subscribe to PFF and will likely continue to do so, I take their QB grading with a pinch of salt, because its all very subjective, they don't account for everything I've just posted above.

    PFF and football outsiders can do all the grading they want, they can talk about how average a player is, but barely any of the teams they graded the highest have won a SB in the last several years. FO and PFF completely wrote us off in the play offs because of their grading system, but we defied their logic and won the SB. The exact same thing occurred with the Giants the year before.




  10. #46
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    Re: Flacco #100 on PFF's Top 101 of 2012 (and why it's ridiculous)

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Yet another reason I don't take anything PFF says seriously.
    You know Houston!, I was thinking the exact same thing! This is part of the reason why sites like PFF get on my nerves. This isn't baseball and they haven't figured that out yet.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  11. #47
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    Re: Flacco #100 on PFF's Top 101 of 2012 (and why it's ridiculous)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Van Cleef View Post
    The thing that amuses me most is around the time of the first Denver game and the Houston game last year people around here were ready to cut Flacco loose because he wasn't getting the job done. It took one of the greatest string of post season performances in history for people to really get behind him, and now it's hyperbole city, and the majority of the season is forgotten.

    They're saying that Flacco is in the top ..what? Fifteen percent of players in the league? They aren't calling him a chump. As much as I love Joe for that run he had, I still want to see him perform to a good level more consistently and when he has off games, they end up being more mediocre, not awful.
    What are you talking about, we were backing Flacco all up and down this board. Someone mentioned Alex Smith as an off-season option and we damn near waged war against him.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  12. #48

    Re: Flacco #100 on PFF's Top 101 of 2012 (and why it's ridiculous)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Van Cleef View Post
    But, and this gets harped on repeatedly when the PFF debate begins, they aren't doing statistical analysis. They are grading performance on each snap played against a consistent grading format.

    I don't think they are the bible, I try to watch as much as I can and form my own opinions, and often I find myself agreeing with their assessment. I honestly don't have a problem with Ryan being higher than Flacco like he is. The OP posted a selection of stats... Well I just had a look at the regular season stats for Ryan and Flacco (it's harder to compare CK as he only started 7 regular season games) ... this is what I took away:

    Flacco had 3 games with sub 50% completion, MR had none.
    Flacco had 6 games with a rating over 100, Ryan had 10. Both had 1 with a sub 50 rating.
    Flacco finished with 3817 passing yards and a 59.7% cmp to Ryan's 4719 and 68.6%.

    I can keep going with this and looking at all the stats the only thing that seems to lean towards Joe is Ryan had two games with more than 2 INTs, including an absolute debacle of a game with 5 INTs.

    Now, we can debate how much Cam affected this and all other sorts of things, but you can't judge a player on what he wasn't doing, you can only go by what he did. Over the course of the season Ryan was asked to do more and performed better. People around here seem to really have it in for him for simply being drafted the same year as Flacco and that he gets praise. He earns that praise. Why does everyone else still question Joe? For the same reasons we have, because of his inconsistency throughout the season. He went on a great run through the post-season, and again I will always love him for that and the wonderful memories his performances provided and won't take that away from him, but that is by far the exception in his career. People here are acting like it's the norm when it isn't.
    Yes they grade each play, without variables. Flacco in a poorly run offense throwing to Boldin and smith as a top WRs, is being graded equally to Ryan in a better offense throwing to Roddy White, Julio Jones and Tony Gonzalez. Thats where the issue lies. Its not a 1 on 1 scenario where you can take this performance against this corner or this defense and call it equal. "Ryan was asked to do more and performed better." Id say due those variables and having two legitimate #1 WRs, prototypical ones, and the GOAT TE that Ryan is actually asked to do a lot less on his own and benefits by them excelling at their positions. while PFFs own analysis claims Boldin does not excel at his, yet is ranked that much higher than the QB that his ability effects. I think theres some hypocrisy there and this "result of the play" isnt taking into account those circumstances. Something eyes can do and stats cannot.
    -JAB




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