NBA playoffs

[JAB1985]

Perhaps ...



Plenty of teams have gone to the finals and lost on the backs of one good player. That's a non-starter.

If you want to look any one particular stat point as to what brings (or removes) someone to the table how this ... did Jordan or Kobe ever foul out of a playoff game? Did Jordan or Kobe ever commit two back to back turnovers to lose a playoff game?

LBJ, most likely, will be in the discussion one day, but he still has a way to go. I will even concede he may be GOAT one day.

If his career ended today, he's not even better than Tim Duncan. He'd be remembered as an almost.

how about you just look at their efficiency ratings...
1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James^ 27.24
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade^ 25.70
7. Chris Paul^ 25.44
8. Bob Pettit* 25.35
9. Tim Duncan^ 24.75
10. Charles Barkley* 24.63
11. Neil Johnston* 24.63
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
13. Magic Johnson* 24.11
14. Karl Malone* 23.90
15. Dirk Nowitzki^ 23.63
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
17. Larry Bird* 23.50
18. Kobe Bryant^ 23.44

Hes a better player, he hasnt accomplished as much... yet. That tends to happen when comparing a retired/soon to be player vs one roughly in his prime.

Do air balls count as TOs? because Kobe has done that.


If his career ended today he still dominated an era. 4 league MVPs and championship/MVP and hes a never was? sorry but that doesnt hold water. If he was only 4-5 years in the league, sure, but 10 years of 28/7/7 basketball cant be diminished.

[JAB1985]

So has Jordan...

[HoustonRaven]

That second Jordan TO was debatable ... Pippin had a hand on the ball ... but I'll grant you that still. I had forgotten about the Magic series.

Not granting the free throw misses. It wasn't a point I was debating.

As for the rest of your post, I am not saying he's not a phenomenal player. Far from it. All I am saying, and you seem to agree with, that it's still too early.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

did Jordan or Kobe ever foul out of a playoff game?

That's irrelevant...it's something that is based on officials calls. Lebron isn't out there hacking.

Did Jordan or Kobe ever commit two back to back turnovers to lose a playoff game?

Yes. Jordan in 95. I don't know about Kobe having 2 turnovers, but Kobe has had more than his fair share of playoff blunders including airballing his last 3 shots in crucial spots in overtime against the Jazz. Now there were circumstances like it being Jordans first playoffs since he came back from his first retirement and Kobe only being 18, but it happens sometimes. I don't think that makes his star any less. Many, may stars have had brain fart moments in the playoffs...Magic in 84, Isiah in 87...it happens.

LBJ, most likely, will be in the discussion one day, but he still has a way to go. I will even concede he may be GOAT one day.

I do NOT think he will be the GOAT any day, but he is firmly in the top 10 players of all time IMHO...and debates can be made that he is approaching top 5 status. I do think the comparisons to Jordan are old and annoying...personally, Lebron's only and biggest negative...and the thing that will always keep me from putting him up there is the way he melted down in the 2011 finals. That will always be a huge scarlett letter on his career no matter how he does from here on out.

If his career ended today, he's not even better than Tim Duncan. He'd be remembered as an almost.

I don't agree with that at all. Tim Duncan has always had the same coach...one of the best of all time IMHO and has consistently played with other all stars and HOF's. Lebron played the first 7-8 years of his career with Mike Brown and Mo Williams as his best coach and best supporting player.

[HoustonRaven]

Yes. Jordan in 95. I don't know about Kobe having 2 turnovers, but Kobe has had more than his fair share of playoff blunders including airballing his last 3 shots in crucial spots in overtime against the Jazz. Now there were circumstances like it being Jordans first playoffs since he came back from his first retirement and Kobe only being 18, but it happens sometimes. I don't think that makes his star any less. Many, may stars have had brain fart moments in the playoffs...Magic in 84, Isiah in 87...it happens.

Agreed. The point I was trying to make (poorly) was that any one stat point can't be used to determine skills and I did a poor job of making an analogy. I think we're saying the same thing.

I do NOT think he will be the GOAT any day, but he is firmly in the top 10 players of all time IMHO...and debates can be made that he is approaching top 5 status. I do think the comparisons to Jordan are old and annoying...personally, Lebron's only and biggest negative...and the thing that will always keep me from putting him up there is the way he melted down in the 2011 finals. That will always be a huge scarlett letter on his career no matter how he does from here on out.

Agreed. That's the one thing that sticks in my side too. He's never going to be as clutch as Jordan unless he changes the way he mentally approaches the last two minutes of games.

I don't agree with that at all. Tim Duncan has always had the same coach...one of the best of all time IMHO and has consistently played with other all stars and HOF's. Lebron played the first 7-8 years of his career with Mike Brown and Mo Williams as his best coach and best supporting player.

It is what it is though. We could speculate LBJ would be better if he had stable coaching, but I would then argue back on a point we seem to agree on -- his melt down. I don't think it would have mattered one bit if he had a different coach. His limitations are mental, IMO.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

BTW...I'd also argue that you switch Kobe and Lebrons teams at their respective ages and Lebron has 6 rings easy...probably more.

He would have absolutely thrived and thouroughly enjoyed playing with Shaq and that Lakers mini dynasty would have gone on a lot longer...Lebron may have made Shaq even more effective as well as the role players like Horry and Fisher.

However, while Kobe would have been putting up insane stats in Cleveland with the likes of Larry Hughes, Donyell Marshall and Mo Williams, I seriously doubt we'd be having anywhere close to the same conversation.

[JAB1985]

That second Jordan TO was debatable ... Pippin had a hand on the ball ... but I'll grant you that still. I had forgotten about the Magic series.

Not granting the free throw misses. It wasn't a point I was debating.

They were 3 pointers and i thought your point was that LBJ turned it over in crunch time and Jordan and Kobe would never do that. They did, both to their teams detriment.
EDIT: I see your post above for what you were trying to say.

As for the rest of your post, I am not saying he's not a phenomenal player. Far from it. All I am saying, and you seem to agree with, that it's still too early.

comparing careers it is. comparing them as players its not. theres sufficient sample that you can compare LBJs 10 vs Kobes 17 or Jordans 15. Thats what the efficiency numbers do, per game effectiveness (not taking into account non-statistical defense, which LBJ excels at).

[JAB1985]

BTW...I'd also argue that you switch Kobe and Lebrons teams at their respective ages and Lebron has 6 rings easy...probably more.

He would have absolutely thrived and thouroughly enjoyed playing with Shaq and that Lakers mini dynasty would have gone on a lot longer...Lebron may have made Shaq even more effective as well as the role players like Horry and Fisher.

However, while Kobe would have been putting up insane stats in Cleveland with the likes of Larry Hughes, Donyell Marshall and Mo Williams, I seriously doubt we'd be having anywhere close to the same conversation.

I think thats fair to say.

[Ravenswintitle]

Perhaps ...



Plenty of teams have gone to the finals and lost on the backs of one good player. That's a non-starter.

If you want to look any one particular stat point as to what brings (or removes) someone to the table how this ... did Jordan or Kobe ever foul out of a playoff game? Did Jordan or Kobe ever commit two back to back turnovers to lose a playoff game?

LBJ, most likely, will be in the discussion one day, but he still has a way to go. I will even concede he may be GOAT one day.

If his career ended today, he's not even better than Tim Duncan. He'd be remembered as an almost.

You've popped into this thread three or four times with the same theme- Lebron isn't as good as player X.
A lot of experts don't agree with you and I wonder if you've watched these games.

Great article in this weeks SI about Lebron at every position and how he makes more jumpers than Durant, Kobe, etc. If Jordan is 1, Lebron is 1A and a couple rings will make him 1 in the eyes of many. Of course these are all opinions but I get the sense you just don't like the guy, (and you're not alone).

[HoustonRaven]

You've popped into this thread three or four times with the same theme- Lebron isn't as good as player X.
A lot of experts don't agree with you and I wonder if you've watched these games.

That's not quite what I have been saying.

I've said, and I've been consistent, that in my opinion, he's not up there with Kobe or Jordan yet. Key word being "yet".

Great article in this weeks SI about Lebron at every position and how he makes more jumpers than Durant, Kobe, etc. If Jordan is 1, Lebron is 1A and a couple rings will make him 1 in the eyes of many. Of course these are all opinions but I get the sense you just don't like the guy, (and you're not alone).

I don't care other than I've had the pleasure to see all three in their primes.

[NCRAVEN]

That's not quite what I have been saying.

I've said, and I've been consistent, that in my opinion, he's not up there with Kobe or Jordan yet. Key word being "yet".

And I think your point is different argument altogether.

You're arguing legacy, while other seem to be arguing talent.

[Ravenswintitle]

And I think your point is different argument altogether.

You're arguing legacy, while other seem to be arguing talent.

That's a good way to phrase it.

When I watch these games, Indianapolis has the matchup advantage at every position ... except when it comes to Lebron. They're really playing well but once Lebron starts hitting 3's instead of having to drive inside, they have no answer. Really an interesting series IMO