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  1. #91
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    Re: Over the Top Stadium designs



    Even if M&T were to get a retractable roof...the NFL would never put a Super Bowl in Baltimore.
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  2. #92
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    Re: Over the Top Stadium designs

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    The stadiums were not paid for by higher taxes. Camden Yards was paid for, in large part, by lottery scratch off ticket sales and lease revenue bonds. Angelos put up 4%. M&T was funded in s similar fashion.

    So the state never lost a dime and continues to make money off of the lease, sales tax from ticket sales, hotel rooms, concessions, bars & restaurants, etc. That's what is meant by "public funding".

    The guys on SXMNFL Radio were talking about this very subjec this morning. For every Miami or Atalanta, there are clear and shining examples of how its done right. The debate ought not to be whether to use public funds. Rather, the debate should be in the math.

    There are only 32 teams. Cities all across the country would kill to have an NFL franchise so there needs to be cooperative between the city and ownerhsip group. When we don't have that cooperative, the team is at risk of leaving for another town who is willing to seek that cooperative, knowing they are going to see a huge cash cow for the city coffers.
    I was referring to Georgia taxpayers and the Georgia Dome renovation, not MD taxpayers or our stadiums. I have no problem replacing obsolete stadiums, and I don't have a problem using public money to do it. What I do have a problem with is government corruption, especially when in cahoots with billionaires making out on my tax dollars. There's no way the taxpayers got their money back on that $300 million Georgia Dome renovation, and there's no way replacement or extensive reconstruction of M&T Bank Stadium should even be considered when it's got at least 10-15, and probably 15-20 years of viability left.
    Never get in a fight with a pig; you both get muddy, and the pig likes it...





  3. #93

    Re: Over the Top Stadium designs

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Even if M&T were to get a retractable roof...the NFL would never put a Super Bowl in Baltimore.
    Why not?




  4. #94
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    Re: Over the Top Stadium designs

    Quote Originally Posted by esmd View Post
    I was referring to Georgia taxpayers and the Georgia Dome renovation, not MD taxpayers or our stadiums. I have no problem replacing obsolete stadiums, and I don't have a problem using public money to do it. What I do have a problem with is government corruption, especially when in cahoots with billionaires making out on my tax dollars. There's no way the taxpayers got their money back on that $300 million Georgia Dome renovation, and there's no way replacement or extensive reconstruction of M&T Bank Stadium should even be considered when it's got at least 10-15, and probably 15-20 years of viability left.
    Well, the way the new Falcons stadium was couched was that it wasn't technically being paid for by "Georgia Taxpayers" but by visitors who use the city's hotels and motels paying into the tax. The difficulty people had was that the money gained from the tax could be put to more better use through infrastructure projects, public schools, and public transportation (all of which Atlanta sorely needs). As for the Dome, the bonds for it's constuction will be paid off two years early in 2018, around the time when it turns 25. The GWCA was in a pretty sticky situation as the Falcons are their main tenant and if they left for the suburbs or another city, the GWCA would be hard pressed to find another tenant of that scale to maintain it.

    I meant to mention in my earlier post that this DEFINITELY has ramifications for Baltimore and other cities when it comes to stadium financing. Although M&T is only approaching 14 years, and Biscuit by most accounts is a benevolent owner with the fan's best interest, don't think that he or other owners won't do whatever it takes to maintain the value of their investment as newer, bigger stadiums begin to come online. The surest way to get rich is by spending other people's money...and 31 of the NFL teams have no problem doing that.
    "The Ravens could employ a war criminal and they would treat him like a f**king prince just because the rest of the world disapproved."




  5. #95
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    Re: Over the Top Stadium designs

    The words "Retractable roof" and "Baltimore Ravens" go together like peanut butter and jellyfish.




  6. #96
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    Re: Over the Top Stadium designs

    Quote Originally Posted by 404Blackbird View Post
    Well, the way the new Falcons stadium was couched was that it wasn't technically being paid for by "Georgia Taxpayers" but by visitors who use the city's hotels and motels paying into the tax. The difficulty people had was that the money gained from the tax could be put to more better use through infrastructure projects, public schools, and public transportation (all of which Atlanta sorely needs). As for the Dome, the bonds for it's constuction will be paid off two years early in 2018, around the time when it turns 25. The GWCA was in a pretty sticky situation as the Falcons are their main tenant and if they left for the suburbs or another city, the GWCA would be hard pressed to find another tenant of that scale to maintain it.

    I meant to mention in my earlier post that this DEFINITELY has ramifications for Baltimore and other cities when it comes to stadium financing. Although M&T is only approaching 14 years, and Biscuit by most accounts is a benevolent owner with the fan's best interest, don't think that he or other owners won't do whatever it takes to maintain the value of their investment as newer, bigger stadiums begin to come online. The surest way to get rich is by spending other people's money...and 31 of the NFL teams have no problem doing that.
    Fair enough, but that's still being paid for by people like you and me, and I'd wager a fair amount of those folks were Georgia residents. And as I posted above in response to HR, those folks sure as hell aren't getting their money back, even if the state and local government(s) in Georgia did.

    As for the rest of your post, I don't disagree. I guess my main disagreement with HR and some others here is that I don't feel M&T is anywhere close to needing a refurbishment/replacement anytime soon. I think some folks get hung up on what it doesn't have (retractable roof and escalators to the UD) and jump on the bandwagon of thinking it needs replacement. In reality, the escalator deal is a non-issue, that only effects us folks that trek up there, it doesn't hurt Steve's bottom line at all. And as for the roof, I don't disagree that there could be some benefit as far as final fours, SB's, college bowl games, etc. But if the city, team, and state wanted a retractable roof, they would have done it when they built M&T. Steve might push for it when M&T becomes obsolete, but again, that is far off into the future, IMO. But as Ravenboy and MisterGQ posted, Steve is doing quite well with M&T with his luxury suites and sweetheart lease that I think someone posted runs through the mid 2020's. That's the earliest, IMO, that you'll hear Steve or the team begin to push for a major renovation or replacement.
    Never get in a fight with a pig; you both get muddy, and the pig likes it...





  7. #97

    Re: Over the Top Stadium designs

    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack View Post
    The words "Retractable roof" and "Baltimore Ravens" go together like peanut butter and jellyfish.
    Agree. Football was meant to be played in the elements. If Green Bay has an outdoor stadium, then so should every other team.




  8. #98

    Re: Over the Top Stadium designs

    Quote Originally Posted by baltimorebred View Post
    Agree. Football was meant to be played in the elements. If Green Bay has an outdoor stadium, then so should every other team.
    Betcha that if a poll were taken of Ravens PSL holders about adding a retractable roof, the majority would support them. Outdoor stadiums are great in October into late November, i.e. "sweater weather", the traditional football season. But no-shows abound throughout the NFL's stadiums from December on.

    We came close to having a retractable roof for this stadium, before politics killed it. It had been justified as an annex to our undersized convention center. I have no idea if the concept will come up again, regardless of Danny Snyder's plans. If it does, I would hope it happens.
    In a 2003 BBC poll that asked Brits to name the "Greatest American Ever", Mr. T came in fourth, behind ML King (3rd), Abe Lincoln (2nd) and Homer Simpson (1st).




  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mista T View Post
    Betcha that if a poll were taken of Ravens PSL holders about adding a retractable roof, the majority would support them. Outdoor stadiums are great in October into late November, i.e. "sweater weather", the traditional football season. But no-shows abound throughout the NFL's stadiums from December on.

    We came close to having a retractable roof for this stadium, before politics killed it. It had been justified as an annex to our undersized convention center. I have no idea if the concept will come up again, regardless of Danny Snyder's plans. If it does, I would hope it happens.
    Agreed.

    Yes, nostalgia tells us that football is meant to be played outdoors.

    But the business reality is that if a city foots some or all of the bill on building the stadium, they're going to want it to make money off of the facility more than the 12 times its used during an NFL season.

    And if you want to force the weather issue, the team can elect to keep the roof open no matter the weather if they feel that strongly about it. Green Bay can get away with it because its in the middle of nowhere and event planners are not looking to do stuff in Green Bay.
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  10. #100

    Re: Over the Top Stadium designs

    Next stadium debacle: Miami's Joe Robbie/Landshark/Sun Life stadium, built 1986. Per Pro Football Talk:

    Dolphins CEO Mike Dee suggested the team might be willing to move just up Interstate 95 if need be. With the bruises still showing from their political fight for public money to upgrade Sun Life Stadium, the Dolphins might be thinking Palm Beach County is a better deal.
    The move to the wealthier and safer Palm Beach County makes some sense, but building another new NFL stadium is another example of unnecessary keeping up with the Joneses. Sure, we all watched the big-ass rainstorm which dampened the last Super Bowl played in Miami Gardens, and the bruising heat begs at least a partial roof, but a whole new stadium? The upgrades to Joe Robby whatever stadium have been substantial: direct escalators to the upper deck (no switchbacks), the widest concourses in the NFL, adequate restrooms, good concessions, great tailgating arrangement (grass plots behind each parking spot). While there's no way to fix the sightlines due to the multi-purpose design, this stadium was adequate for an NFL team.

    New stadiums in Minneapolis, possibly St Louis, South Florida, Atlanta, etc. would push us further down the list.
    In a 2003 BBC poll that asked Brits to name the "Greatest American Ever", Mr. T came in fourth, behind ML King (3rd), Abe Lincoln (2nd) and Homer Simpson (1st).




  11. #101
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    Re: Over the Top Stadium designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Bru View Post
    I just looked at the pdf demonstration for the Atlanta Falcons new stadium design configurations from nfl.com. The first one, Pantheon design, with the retractable roof is just a monstrosity, but the second one, Solarium design, looks like something you could just cover any existing stadium with.

    This is why I am posting this. If the Falcons Stadium that was built for the 1996 Atlanta Olympics is getting old enough to replace, then the Ravens stadium has got to be close as well. I always wondered if it would be possible to just enclose the current stadium, and looking at the slide show posted under concept designs at the above link it looks like that could be a possibility, with the Solarium design. I don't think there is anything wrong with M&T Bank Stadium, but in this crazy "gotta keep up with the Jerry Jones'" world, do you think it is going to be time to build a new stadium for the Ravens anytime soon?

    Stadiums usually last about 25 years before owners want new ones unless you're the
    Boston Red Sox or Chicago Cubs.

    So we have 12 more years but the last thread said Ravens already want some changes
    made. Oriole Park was built in 95 but is still being called the best park to watch a game
    in.




  12. #102
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    Re: Over the Top Stadium designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Mista T View Post
    Betcha that if a poll were taken of Ravens PSL holders about adding a retractable roof, the majority would support them. Outdoor stadiums are great in October into late November, i.e. "sweater weather", the traditional football season. But no-shows abound throughout the NFL's stadiums from December on.

    We came close to having a retractable roof for this stadium, before politics killed it.
    Art killed it. He wanted an outdoor stadium for reason you mentioned above. I wanted
    a roof because we might have lured NBA and NHL teams plus the NCAA regionals
    and Final 4. All those games are played in monster downtown stadiums with 20-25,000
    seats with our arena holds about 12,000. That's why we didn't get an expansion
    NHL team back in the 60s when the old minor league Clippers and then the SkipJacks
    were hot items.

    But Art was wise not to want one. Look what happens to Matt Ryan when he plays out
    of the dome and in the playoffs although he lost at home to SF this year. Atlanta scared
    the daylights out of me if we got them in NO with that fast track and his great
    receivers.


    On the last thread I posted the top 20 stadiums and Lambeau Field was #1 on a couple
    of lists but that was mostly for their famous tailgating and low concession prices.

    Ravens stadium was #5 ahead of Reliant Stadium in Texas with a retractible roof.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 05-09-2013 at 03:23 PM.




  13. #103
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    Re: Over the Top Stadium designs

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    Stadiums usually last about 25 years before owners want new ones unless you're the
    Boston Red Sox or Chicago Cubs.

    So we have 12 more years but the last thread said Ravens already want some changes
    made. Oriole Park was built in 95 but is still being called the best park to watch a game
    in.
    I don't know that past is prologue here.

    That 25 year standard is due to a bunch of stadiums that became obsolete at the same time. There were two reasons for this: 1) the failed experiment of multipurpose stadiums. It was a trend, and many were built around the same time. And they all became obsolete at the same time too, when it turned out it was the worst of both worlds, not the best. 2) Changing economics around sports. The thought of someone paying the 1970 equivalent of $400 for a single football ticket would have been insane. Nevermind corporate boxes and the ridiculous prices they command. Corporations entered the landscape, and took it away from the regular (and rabid) fan. And stadiums needed to be able to accomodate them and their dollars.

    So what I'm saying is, OP@CY could be good for another 70 years. In football, Reliant, Giants Stadium, Lucas Oil -- they could last much more than 25 years. If a stadium is well built, and can be updated over time, and has enough room for the corporate muckety-mucks, then there may not be a need to replace it. Of course, hellholes like FedEx should have been imploded the day after it opened. It was BUILT out-dated.

    As an extra note, go to OP@CY right now and it seems like a brand new ballpark. They added the CF bar, updated the scoreboards, got new seats, and it feels like it could have just opened this year. It's like a house that has 'good bones.'
    "Leave. Your. Mark."




  14. #104
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    Re: Over the Top Stadium designs

    ILMAO - No way Lucas OIL lasts 70 yrs with an Irsay running the team. JImmy boy did the same as his old man and threatened to move to LA and got the new stadium. His son will
    do the same thing in about 20 years.

    Owners want the latest things out so when the sky boxes came out owners wanted them and threatened to move and some did - Al Davis, twice, Irsay, Bidwell. Rosenbloom who demanded a new stadium here as early as the late 60s when Memorial Stadium was
    just 14 yrs old but in all honesty, was out-dated before it was even built.

    That 25 yr figure was a little old but the last number I heard but I don't see the Bisciotti's
    and Angelos' threatening to move their team if they don't get new stadiums in the next
    10 years. They might want modifications though and I posted where Ravens already
    might want upgrades.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 05-09-2013 at 05:57 PM.




  15. #105
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    Re: Over the Top Stadium designs

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    The same reasons businesses must reinvest in infrastructure so too do NFL teams need to do the same.

    If your competition is modernizing and you're not, it's only a matter of time before its a profit drain. There are exceptions. Iconic stadia such as Green Bay, Fenway, Wrigley, etc can get away with it because the stadium itself is a draw.

    The Vault, while adequate now, is not a unique / iconic place that in of itself draws people. In 5-10 years, it's going to be a bottom tier stadium.
    We don't need the stadium to draw people. The team does. There is no reason to talk about replacing the stadium. The Georgia Dome sucks but football indoors generally does.




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