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  1. #31
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    Re: 2008 draft and the 1996 draft



    Barring something completely unforeseen there is no way Rice gets HOF consideration. Really aside from Peterson I'd be surprised if any active RB makes it. The position is so undervalued right now with how the league is changing.

    Joe could quite easily makes it if he continues his superb play in the playoffs, and gets another ring. The HOF is literred with players who were never especially good in the regular season, but always turned it on in the playoffs. Like nearly every Steelers offensive player. The biggest thing working against him right now is the media perception as has been stated, but another ring would go a long way to change that.

    But no way will it come close to 96. Ray is arguably the greatest defensive player in the NFL history regardless of position. In my mind Ogden is inarguably the best LT ever. Both drafts were pretty weak other than the top 2 picks, but at least in 96 we also got Jermaine Lewis, who was a fantastic return man for us. Compared to 08 which got us two decent ST players in Nakamura and Zbikowski




  2. #32

    Re: 2008 draft and the 1996 draft

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSpiderWebb View Post

    Joe could quite easily makes it if he continues his superb play in the playoffs, and gets another ring. The HOF is literred with players who were never especially good in the regular season, but always turned it on in the playoffs. Like nearly every Steelers offensive player. The biggest thing working against him right now is the media perception as has been stated, but another ring would go a long way to change that.
    Not compared to their peers when they played. And that is what they base the HOF on.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  3. #33
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    Re: 2008 draft and the 1996 draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    Not compared to their peers when they played. And that is what they base the HOF on.
    Are you referring the Steelers players? When were Franco Harris, John Stallworth or Terry Bradshaw(I'll leave off Swann, but even that is VERY debatable) ever considered the best at their position even among their peers?




  4. #34
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    Re: 2008 draft and the 1996 draft

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSpiderWebb View Post
    Are you referring the Steelers players? When were Franco Harris, John Stallworth or Terry Bradshaw(I'll leave off Swann, but even that is VERY debatable) ever considered the best at their position even among their peers?
    Being the best at your position isn't the only qualifier for the HoF.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  5. #35
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    Re: 2008 draft and the 1996 draft

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Being the best at your position isn't the only qualifier for the HoF.
    I said AMONG the best, not the best.

    Edit: No I didn't, sorry. Meant that though.




  6. #36

    Re: 2008 draft and the 1996 draft

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSpiderWebb View Post
    Are you referring the Steelers players? When were Franco Harris, John Stallworth or Terry Bradshaw(I'll leave off Swann, but even that is VERY debatable) ever considered the best at their position even among their peers?
    Franco Harris retired as the second leading rusher of all time. Terry Bradshaw was a 2 time All Pro and made the 70's all decade team. Stallworth also made 2 All Pro teams and actually had much better stats than Swann.

    While they may have not been THE best player at their position...A.) You don't have to be #1 at your position...just in that elite group for a period of time. And B.) All those players put up multiple top 5 seasons at their positions in the regular seasons to go along with their success.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  7. #37

    Re: 2008 draft and the 1996 draft

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSpiderWebb View Post
    I said AMONG the best, not the best.

    Edit: No I didn't, sorry. Meant that though.
    You don't think in the 1977-1979 seasons that those guys were considered among the best at their positions?

    How many QB's/RB's/WR's can you name in that period that were better?
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  8. #38
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    Re: 2008 draft and the 1996 draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    You don't think in the 1977-1979 seasons that those guys were considered among the best at their positions?

    How many QB's/RB's/WR's can you name in that period that were better?
    Probably about 5 each. Shouldn't that be enough? And Harris was probably the best among the bunch, but was all-pro a total of once and at best the 6-7th best back of the 70s.




  9. #39

    Re: 2008 draft and the 1996 draft

    There were not 5 better in that time period. You don't make all pro teams in consecutive years being the 6th best at your position. If you can, name them.

    Edit: Also, no other RB made as many pro bowls in the 70's as Harris, he gained the most yards and was one of 2 RB's to make the 70's decade team. He was better than the 6th or 7th best back.
    Last edited by Raveninwoodlawn; 05-02-2013 at 03:03 PM.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  10. #40
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    Re: 2008 draft and the 1996 draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    FYI...the site everybody goes to to support their argument of players who they haven't seen, PFF released it's top 100 players of last season.

    Guess who was number 100.

    100. Joe Flacco, QB, Baltimore Ravens (Unranked) .....there were 16 other games that can’t be discounted where Flacco struggled with accuracy for a Ravens team that stumbled into the playoffs....

    63. Anquan Boldin, WR, Baltimore Ravens (Unranked) ....Really stepped it up in the postseason and that’s why he makes the list....
    So you can't discount Joe's 16 games of inaccuracy. But apparently, you CAN discount Anquan's 16 games where he amassed a grand total of 4 TD's? Rankings like this are pure BS anyway, but is consistency really that much to ask for?
    "Leave. Your. Mark."




  11. #41
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    Re: 2008 draft and the 1996 draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    There were not 5 better in that time period. You don't make all pro teams in consecutive years being the 6th best at your position. If you can, name them.
    Umm... they didn't?

    QB:
    Roger Staubach
    Bert Jones
    Fran Tarkenton
    Bob Greise
    Dan Fouts

    RB:
    Walter Payton
    Earl Campbell
    O.J. Simpson
    Tony Dorsett
    Larry Csonka

    WR:
    Charley Joiner
    Paul Warfield
    Lance Alworth
    Steve Largent
    Though admittedly Swann probably fits in here somewhere




  12. #42

    Re: 2008 draft and the 1996 draft

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSpiderWebb View Post
    Umm... they didn't?

    QB:
    Roger Staubach
    Bert Jones
    Fran Tarkenton
    Bob Greise
    Dan Fouts

    RB:
    Walter Payton
    Earl Campbell
    O.J. Simpson
    Tony Dorsett
    Larry Csonka

    WR:
    Charley Joiner
    Paul Warfield
    Lance Alworth
    Steve Largent
    Though admittedly Swann probably fits in here somewhere
    Terry Bradshaw was 1st team all pro in 1978...2nd team in 1979. consecutive years.

    John Stallworth was 1st team all pro in 1979...granted there was a gap but he was 2nd team all pro in 1984.

    And since I said from 1977-1979 in a previous post...that is the timeframe I'm going with as very, very few are all pro for an entire decade, there is no way that Fan Tarkenton (who threw 12 more INT's than TD's in that time frame), Bob Griese (2 of those years failed to throw more TD's than INT's), Bert Jones (had unfortunately been injured during that time frame) and Dan Fouts (just really started becoming Dan Fouts in the last year of that time frame), were better during that time period than Bradshaw.

    As for Harris...he put up better numbers than all of those guys. Now you may be right about the time frame I specified, but he is the one guy who overall in that decade was the most productive.

    Warfield and Alworth did the vast majority of their damage in the 60's and spent a total of one season in that time frame I noted. Largent did most of his damage in the 80's but I can see the argument for him and Joiner.

    I'm dumbfounded by your seeming preference for Swann over Stallworth as well. Stallworth was clearly the better WR IMHO...Swann fits that criteria of the flashy postseason WR who had a really short shelf life with solid, but not great numbers during the regular season.

    You don't have to be at that elite level for 7-8 years...Marshall Faulk for example. But if you can put 2-3 elite level years to go with a bunch of good/really good years, you are a good bet...especially if you win Super Bowls.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  13. #43
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    Re: 2008 draft and the 1996 draft

    If the Ravens win 3 Superbowls in the next 5 years, they are both in. Flacco needs to consistantly start throwing over 4,000 yards and having 30 TD's. Given the way the game is today, i think you have to put up some level of statistics and with Brees consistantly flirting with 5000 yards, that fact that Joe has never thrown for 4000 is not good for him.

    Rice needs to be consistant and continue to rack up stats and have a Curtis Martin type of career. One advantage that he has is that he can continue to differentiate himself from other RB's by catching a lot of passes. He needs to get it back up overe 700 yards receiving and 1200 to 1300 yards rushing for a few more years. Its a lot of ifs. If he had a 1000 yard receiving 1000 yard rushing season it would also help his case for greatness. One advantage Rice has is that he has a pretty decent highlight reel. He has a lot of specatcular runs that get on sport center and leave an impression in people's minds. Will he get there? I don't know but it is not as far fetched as some seem to think.




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