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  1. #13
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    Re: The War on Terror - What Are We Doing Here?



    But how do we know that they didn't knock on the doors, ask the owners (if they were home) if they had noticed anything out of the ordinary, and then ask permission to look around the property?

    My wife's cousin lives right outside of Boston and they had FBI and Massachusetts PD combing the area. An FBI agent knocked on their door, they answered, he asked if they knew what went on that afternoon (which they had and acknowledged they had). Then he asked if they had noticed anything suspicious or out of the ordinary in the neighborhood. They said they hadn't, but if they did they would call the Mass PD. The FBI agent said thank you and left.

    I'm sure not every person involved in the man-hunt was as professional, but I do think that some of this stuff is overblown.
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  2. #14

    Re: The War on Terror - What Are We Doing Here?

    I like to think there was a lot more involved than what were seeing in the video/pictures. Im not sure how it all went down, but I dont think it was as bad as it seems from our perspective. To wickeds point, there could be plenty of scenarios where that was justified. Seems when the guy comes to the door hes pointing at something. For all we know he called them to come to his house or a neighbor saw something suspicious and called them in.

    To HRs point about this happening in a gun strict state vs a pro gun state. Im not sure it doesnt happen exactly like you proclaim it would, but i dont think police action would have differed much. This War on Terror that JB is talking about is just that. We didnt know what these guys were about or if they were affiliated with any group so they reacted accordingly.

    As far as a pro gun state where the homeowner takes things into his own hands to "protect" himself, thats exactly the vigilante justice that i disagree with, and there is a faction of people that want and seek that opportunity. A guy hiding in your boat is not imminent danger to your life worthy of killing him on the spot. I know he was injured pretty severely and im not sure he still had his gun or not, but hiding is not a dangerous action. Knowing that we were still unsure about things, taking him alive was the best scenario and something i was actually worried about happening. now well get some better answers before he faces the same death penalty. you shoot him in the head on your own will, we dont get those questions answered. If the police were forced to, or a civilian that was actually threatened, so be it but i dont think that would have been proper course of action for anybody to do considering the circumstances.
    Last edited by JAB1985; 04-24-2013 at 06:55 AM.
    -JAB




  3. #15
    Different POV, and I don't know how Joe/Jane Photographer felt about it at the time, but when shit is going down, bullets are flying/have flown and law enforcement and those otherwise deputized are in the process of executing their duties, do try to keep your happy ass away from the doors and windows.

    Leave the live documentation to the credentialed and well-identified professionals. Be a free citizen, but be a smart citizen too.
    Back to the AFCCG we go. So get ready!

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  4. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    As far as a pro gun state where the homeowner takes things into his own hands to "protect" himself, thats exactly the vigilante justice that i disagree with, and there is a faction of people that want and seek that opportunity. A guy hiding in your boat is not imminent danger to your life worthy of killing him on the spot. I know he was injured pretty severely and im not sure he still had his gun or not. Knowing that we were still unsure about things, taking him alive was the best scenario and something i was actually worried about happening. now well get some better answers before he faces the same death penalty. you shoot him in the head on your own will, we dont get those questions answered. If the police were forced to, or a civilian that was actually threatened, so be it but i dont think that would have been proper course of action for anybody to do considering the circumstances.
    He had a gun in the boat. Infrared saw it and he got into a small shoot out with the police when they arrived.

    So yes, given that same scenario I'd have no problem with putting two in his head then calling the police. He already blew up innocent people and murdered a police officer. It's hardly being a vigilante. It's insuring your safety and the safety of your family.

    It isn't about being a vigilante (although, I know that term is bandied about by those opposed to The Castle Doctrine). It's about being truly safe and secure on your own private property, recognizing it's far better to protect yourself than rely on the police to do it for you.

    And he isn't getting the death penalty. Mark my words.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  5. #17
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    Re: The War on Terror - What Are We Doing Here?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    As far as a pro gun state where the homeowner takes things into his own hands to "protect" himself, thats exactly the vigilante justice that i disagree with, and there is a faction of people that want and seek that opportunity. A guy hiding in your boat is not imminent danger to your life worthy of killing him on the spot. I know he was injured pretty severely and im not sure he still had his gun or not, but hiding is not a dangerous action. Knowing that we were still unsure about things, taking him alive was the best scenario and something i was actually worried about happening. now well get some better answers before he faces the same death penalty. you shoot him in the head on your own will, we dont get those questions answered. If the police were forced to, or a civilian that was actually threatened, so be it but i dont think that would have been proper course of action for anybody to do considering the circumstances.
    Obviously if he is killed before the chance to question him we don't get those answers, but at the same time it tells people who want to commit acts like this, shit we have to look out for the citizens too, d'oh!
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  6. #18

    Re: The War on Terror - What Are We Doing Here?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    He had a gun in the boat. Infrared saw it and he got into a small shoot out with the police when they arrived.

    So yes, given that same scenario I'd have no problem with putting two in his head then calling the police. He already blew up innocent people and murdered a police officer. It's hardly being a vigilante. It's insuring your safety and the safety of your family.

    It isn't about being a vigilante (although, I know that term is bandied about by those opposed to The Castle Doctrine). It's about being truly safe and secure on your own private property, recognizing it's far better to protect yourself than rely on the police to do it for you.

    And he isn't getting the death penalty. Mark my words.
    The proper action in that scenario, where your life isnt actively being threatened is to call the police, not put two in his head then do it. that is exactly what a vigilante is and still is supported by the castle doctrine which states that fear of death is imminent. It cannot be imminent in a scenario where hes the one hiding. You just made yourself judge, jury and executioner of a guy because of what he did to somebody else, not what he was doing at the time, to you. A lot of states you can shoot somebody inside your house for just about anything and have just cause, outside your house and that changes drastically because its no longer imminent.

    I hope youre wrong about that and he gets the death penalty but really im not sure if theres reason to think one way or the other on it at the moment. Curious but why do you think he wont?
    -JAB




  7. #19
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    Re: The War on Terror - What Are We Doing Here?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigPlayReceiver View Post
    Different POV, and I don't know how Joe/Jane Photographer felt about it at the time, but when shit is going down, bullets are flying/have flown and law enforcement and those otherwise deputized are in the process of executing their duties, do try to keep your happy ass away from the doors and windows.

    Leave the live documentation to the credentialed and well-identified professionals. Be a free citizen, but be a smart citizen too.
    Good point.
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  8. #20
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    Re: The War on Terror - What Are We Doing Here?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    The proper action in that scenario, where your life isnt actively being threatened is to call the police, not put two in his head then do it. that is exactly what a vigilante is and still is supported by the castle doctrine which states that fear of death is imminent. It cannot be imminent in a scenario where hes the one hiding. You just made yourself judge, jury and executioner of a guy because of what he did to somebody else, not what he was doing at the time, to you. A lot of states you can shoot somebody inside your house for just about anything and have just cause, outside your house and that changes drastically because its no longer imminent.

    I hope youre wrong about that and he gets the death penalty but really im not sure if theres reason to think one way or the other on it at the moment. Curious but why do you think he wont?
    I think, well...at least in my opinion...a vigilante is someone that actively seeks out wrong-doers and punishes them.

    If someone comes onto your property, threatens your family/you, and you drop him...that isn't being a vigilante. That is purely and simply self-defense.
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  9. #21

    Re: The War on Terror - What Are We Doing Here?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I think, well...at least in my opinion...a vigilante is someone that actively seeks out wrong-doers and punishes them.

    If someone comes onto your property, threatens your family/you, and you drop him...that isn't being a vigilante. That is purely and simply self-defense.
    Where we differ is whats considered threatening to the point of requiring deadly force. if somebody is trespassing and takes up shelter, yeah i dont want them there but theres not immediate danger, so you call the police. A guy breaking into my house, totally different scenario, which id agree, deadly force is needed. one is protecting by being a reaction, one is protecting by preemptively removing a possible threat. I dont think the latter is within the intent of the law.

    I didnt mean to highjack, I think this is a good debate to be had, so ill try to keep it back on topic.
    -JAB




  10. #22
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    Re: The War on Terror - What Are We Doing Here?

    Can't believe I am saying this, but I am leaning with JAB on this specific example. From what I understand the homeowner peaked in the boat and saw the suspect and said he was out of it, so at that point there was no threat. Had the guy not been out of it and looked up and noticed you.... well. boom, boom, boom
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  11. #23

    Re: The War on Terror - What Are We Doing Here?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Can't believe I am saying this, but I am leaning with JAB on this specific example. From what I understand the homeowner peaked in the boat and saw the suspect and said he was out of it, so at that point there was no threat. Had the guy not been out of it and looked up and noticed you.... well. boom, boom, boom
    dont make it seem so horrible... .

    Id agree, you look in and the guy sees you and goes for his gun... pull the trigger, no questions asked.
    -JAB




  12. #24
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    Re: The War on Terror - What Are We Doing Here?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    dont make it seem so horrible... .

    Id agree, you look in and the guy sees you and goes for his gun... pull the trigger, no questions asked.
    It's not that bad. We usually agree on the end game, just not always the way to get there.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




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