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  1. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post

    yep, we disagree by a LOT...

    Yu brin up WR's? Really? How manysuperbowls do Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitz, Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, AJ Green, Ju;lio Jones, etc... the list can go on... have COMBINED. The answer is still zero.

    I would MAYBE agree with Corner. MAYBE. Offensively there is not a positiion that is close. Heck, TE is quite possibly more important then WR in today's NFL. WR is among the lower tier positions.

    I can do that too.

    How many SB victories does Joe Thomas, Russell Okung, Jake Long, Trent Williams, Ryan Kalil, Jason Peters, Jared Veldheer, or D'Brickashaw Ferguson have?

    I think our two perspectives indicate one truth: the QB is the most important position and in today's NFL it is impossible to get to and win a SB without great QB play.

    Everything else matters, but in varying degrees and they are all dependent on the QB being capable.

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  2. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    Three of the top 5 picks in this year's draft could be LTs. To me, that speaks volumes about the importance of a LT in the NFL. A team can certainly win with a serviceable LT (just as a team can win with a serviceable QB), but it doesn't change the fact that LT is a coveted position.
    What team in the past decade has won with "serviceable" QB play? Hell, what team has even gotten to the SB with "serviceable" QB play? Roethlisberger's first SB may be the only one that you could argue, but he has been nothing short of great almost every season afterwards.

    Also, the three LT prospects in this draft are by and large considered some of the best overall players, so that doesnt necessarily prove or disprove that LT's are vital for the success of an offense.

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  3. #87
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    It's the speed in footwork. Either you have it or you don't. You can teach the techniques but not the speed.

    The thing that makes Suggs great is he gets by his blocker in 1 step - that's all. That's speed.

    JJ always said he doesn't have the speed or natural skills that Suggs had and he had to work for everything.

    Same with JO. He had the natural speed for footwork. He had natural abilities in all the techniques. He didn't have to work like JJ. It just came natural to him - that and his
    great size with the long 36" arms, wing span and size.

    You can go over footwork techniques like they do with CB drills but the speed is what
    makes it go. You gotta beat those great pass rushers with footwork speed and techniques.
    KO didn't have it on the end and that's why they moved him back.

    You either got it or you don't and neither Oher or KO had the footwork speed. Look
    how KO improved after moving back to his natural position. He had less area to cover
    and had Mac and Birk covering for him on both sides. Despite his great size he was
    a LG in college.

    He was asked about that when he was drafted. He said I was always a LG but will play
    wherever the put me. He tried it at RT and failed but excelled back at his natural
    position.

    KO and Mac looked like Mount Rushmore on the left side. That's when we started winning.
    I really hope they don't tamper with that but they might have to.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 04-24-2013 at 08:34 PM.
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  4. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    It's the speed in footwork. Either you have it or you don't. You can teach the techniques but not the speed.

    The thing that makes Suggs great is he gets by his blocker in 1 step - that's all. That's speed.

    JJ always said he doesn't have the speed or natural skills that Suggs had and he had to work for everything.

    Same with JO. He had the natural speed for footwork. He had natural abilities in all the techniques. He didn't have to work like JJ. It just came natural to him - that and his
    great size with the long 36" arms, wing span and size.

    You can go over footwork techniques like they do with CB drills but the speed is what
    makes it go. You gotta beat those great pass rushers with footwork speed and techniques.
    KO didn't have it on the end and that's why they moved him back.

    You either got it or you don't and neither Oher or KO had the footwork speed. Look
    how KO improved after moving back to his natural position. He had less area to cover
    and had Mac and Birk covering for him on both sides. Despite his great size he was
    a LG in college.

    He was asked about that when he was drafted. He said I was always a LG but will play
    wherever the put me. He tried it at RT and failed but excelled back at his natural
    position.

    KO and Mac looked like Mount Rushmore on the left side. That's when we started winning.
    I really hope they don't tamper with that but they might have to.
    So basically, you believe that players cant get faster or more agile with practice and hard work.

    Suggs was a bad example. He ran a slower 40-time than Upshaw and Suggs has never been a speed guy. Suggs knows how to set up linemen with outstanding strength and pass rushing moves.

    KO played LT at Iowa State...not LG.

    If the Ravens bring McKinnie back for one more season then they could leave KO at guard and he would stand a good chance at making the pro-bowl. However, I dont think the Ravens really want McKinnie back. Sure, they have acknowledged to the media that there is some interest, but at this point I dont think it is substantial interest. Based on last season - if you dont buy the "McKinnie was hurt until Jah Reid got hurt" scenario - I think it was pretty obvious that McKinnie had worn out his welcome with the organization. Simply stated, McKinnie on an average day is a better LT than Oher on his best day. The fact that they weren't playing McKinnie and were basically experimenting with the OL all season leads me to believe that there is probably a very very very small chance that they actually bring McKinnie back.

    Considering that, their best bet will likely be to move KO to left tackle, leave Oher on the right, and draft one of the many talented guard prospects in this draft and look at project LT candidates in the mid round.

    Barrett Jones, Larry Warford, Travis Frederick, Justing Pugh, Dallas Thomas, Brian Winters, Jordan Mills and several others could be day-1 starters at LG.

    Then look at Chris Faulk, Luke Marquardt, Roger Gaines, etc as project LTs in the mid rounds.

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  5. #89
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    I said you can't teach the speed in footwork. You can go over the techniques but you have to have the natural speed to succeed on the ends. Oher and KO don't have that natural speed and failed miserably on the ends.

    Suggs was a perfect example on speed. Its his natural first step that beats his opponents to the backfield. That's what the players say. I'm going by them not you.

    The 40 time has nothing to do with it.

    Suggs dropped to us because of his poor 40 time and Phil Savage who was at his workout at
    ASU phoned Oz and said Suggs just dropped to us.

    Yet, it's that first step that makes him the greatest on the outside. Nobody knew that except Phil and Ozzie. The rest were like you relying on his 40 time.


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  6. #90

    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    I said you can't teach the speed in footwork. You can go over the techniques but you have to have the natural speed to succeed on the ends. Oher and KO don't have that natural speed and failed miserably on the ends.

    Suggs was a perfect example on speed. Its his natural first step that beats his opponents to the backfield. That's what the players say. I'm going by them not you.

    The 40 time has nothing to do with it.

    Suggs dropped to us because of his poor 40 time and Phil Savage who was at his workout at
    ASU phoned Oz and said Suggs just dropped to us.

    Yet, it's that first step that makes him the greatest on the outside. Nobody knew that except Phil and Ozzie. The rest were like you relying on his 40 time.


    I'M A FOOTBALL PLAYER, NOT A TRACK STAR. T. SUGGS.
    In Oher's case, I think he doesn't use his hands well, probably a result of having short arms. And honestly, I just don't think he's the sharpest knife in the drawer. All the times he jumped offsides it was easy to see(since he was the only one on the field moving) that he has quick feet.




  7. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    I said you can't teach the speed in footwork. You can go over the techniques but you have to have the natural speed to succeed on the ends.

    Suggs was a perfect example on speed. Its his natural first step that beats his opponents to the backfield. That's what the players say. I'm going by them not you.

    The 40 time has nothing to do with it.

    Suggs dropped to us because of his poor 40 time and Phil Savage who was at his workout at
    ASU phoned Oz and said Suggs just dropped to us.

    Yet, it's that first step that makes him the greatest on the outside. Nobody knew that except Phil and Ozzie. The rest were like you relying on the 40 his 40 time.

    I'M A FOOTBALL PLAYER, NOT A TRACK STAR. T. SUGGS.
    Do you have a link from where a player said that?

    And Suggs' quote about being a football player and not a track star is exactly what I was eluding to. He isnt fast. He never was. He is strong as hell, knows how to set up linemen, and he has an outstanding repertoire of pass rushing moves.

    LaMarr Woodley is kind of a similar player. So was Joey Porter and IIRC, Mike McCrary. Outstanding pass rushers because of their ability to set linemen up, but not necessarily the most explosive player on the field. Hopefully Upshaw can develop those skills like Suggs did.

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  8. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfish View Post

    In Oher's case, I think he doesn't use his hands well, probably a result of having short arms. And honestly, I just don't think he's the sharpest knife in the drawer. All the times he jumped offsides it was easy to see(since he was the only one on the field moving) that he has quick feet.
    Oher is very athletic. He has quick feet and his footwork isnt AS bad as some are making it out to be. His downfall is indeed his short arms. Offensive tackles with short arms have a tough time because pass rushers can close the gap quicker, get their hands on them sooner, and that allows them to in a sense "drive" or take control of the short-armed tackle. This is why Filmstudy believes that tackle candidates ideally should have as close to 34.50" arms or longer because those extra inches count big time when fending off pass rushers.

    Longer arms means pass rushers have a harder time getting into the body of a tackle and steering the tackle around. Tackles with long arms have the ability to use greater leverage. As athletic as Oher is, he will never have that leverage capability.

    KO, btw, has 35"+ arma iirc.

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  9. #93
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfish View Post
    In Oher's case, I think he doesn't use his hands well, probably a result of having short arms. And honestly, I just don't think he's the sharpest knife in the drawer. All the times he jumped offsides it was easy to see(since he was the only one on the field moving) that he has quick feet.
    Ditto and AMEN.

    That's why he dropped to begin with. The word "stupid" is plastered all over the book starting
    at about p. 37 and on. Ozzie never read the book.

    That's what I said all season about his hands. Doesn't use his hands well.

    He wrestles his opponents and gets his hands up under the arm pits. Just pull out some old
    tapes on him, especially at LT.

    He doesn't use his hands as a stun gun hitting his man in the chest. Even I did that at my lowly level and we weren't allowed to use hands back in the 60s and 70s. We used our fists and
    fore arms but I loved whacking my opponent in the chest and stomach when he jumped up
    and raised his arms to block a pass. He lost his wind every time.

    The arm pit hold goes back to his high school days as the book says and he never got rid
    of it in college or the pros.
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  10. #94
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Oher is very athletic. He has quick feet and his footwork isnt AS bad as some are making it out to be. His downfall is indeed his short arms. Offensive tackles with short arms have a tough time because pass rushers can close the gap quicker, get their hands on them sooner, and that allows them to in a sense "drive" or take control of the short-armed tackle. This is why Filmstudy believes that tackle candidates ideally should have as close to 34.50" arms or longer because those extra inches count big time when fending off pass rushers.

    Longer arms means pass rushers have a harder time getting into the body of a tackle and steering the tackle around. Tackles with long arms have the ability to use greater leverage. As athletic as Oher is, he will never have that leverage capability.

    KO, btw, has 35"+ arma iirc.

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    Oher is athletic and excellent in run blocking but hates pass blocking like so many other
    linemen. Hell I loved it even though the shoulders hurt like hell after a while.

    Yea, KO is perfectly built as a LT but played LG. That's why he was so cool to look at back at
    LG along with the mammoth Big Mac next to him.

    You're right about teaching footwork technique and if KO loses weight he'll add speed to that
    footwork but he better get on the track every day in the offseason to do it and get one of
    Ray's juicers drinking only carrot and broccoli juice-lol.
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  11. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post

    Ditto and AMEN.

    That's why he dropped to begin with. The word "stupid" is plastered all over the book starting
    at about p. 37 and on. Ozzie never read the book.

    That's what I said all season about his hands. Doesn't use his hands well.

    He wrestles his opponents and gets his hands up under the arm pits. Just pull out some old
    tapes on him, especially at LT.

    He doesn't use his hands as a stun gun hitting his man in the chest.

    The arm pit hold goes back to his high school days as the book says and he never got rid
    of it in college or the pros.
    Ed Reed only scored a 13 (out of 50 total points) on the wonderlic test, but I would say he is one of the smartest defensive players to ever play in the NFL.

    Considering Oher's life before meeting the Touhy family, I'd say the man has overcome some major obstacles regarding measured intelligence. I dont think the guy is ever going to win a Nobel prize or become a neurosurgeon, but you guys are acting like he cant even read. He's not Dexter Manley.

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  12. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post

    Oher is athletic and excellent in run blocking but hates pass blocking like so many other
    linemen. Hell I loved it even though the shoulders hurt like hell after a while.

    Yea, KO is perfectly built as a LT but played LG. That's why he was so cool to look at back at
    LG along with the mammoth Big Mac next to him.

    You're right about teaching footwork technique and if KO loses weight he'll add speed to that
    footwork but he better get on the track every day in the offseason to do it and get one of
    Ray's juicers drinking only carrot and broccoli juice-lol.
    I think if you and I agree on anything it is that having Juan Castillo is going to bring out the best in KO wherever he ends up playing.

    I know I am in the minority, but I think under Castillo Oher could end up having his best season.

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