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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    I said you can't teach the speed in footwork. You can go over the techniques but you have to have the natural speed to succeed on the ends.

    Suggs was a perfect example on speed. Its his natural first step that beats his opponents to the backfield. That's what the players say. I'm going by them not you.

    The 40 time has nothing to do with it.

    Suggs dropped to us because of his poor 40 time and Phil Savage who was at his workout at
    ASU phoned Oz and said Suggs just dropped to us.

    Yet, it's that first step that makes him the greatest on the outside. Nobody knew that except Phil and Ozzie. The rest were like you relying on the 40 his 40 time.

    I'M A FOOTBALL PLAYER, NOT A TRACK STAR. T. SUGGS.
    Do you have a link from where a player said that?

    And Suggs' quote about being a football player and not a track star is exactly what I was eluding to. He isnt fast. He never was. He is strong as hell, knows how to set up linemen, and he has an outstanding repertoire of pass rushing moves.

    LaMarr Woodley is kind of a similar player. So was Joey Porter and IIRC, Mike McCrary. Outstanding pass rushers because of their ability to set linemen up, but not necessarily the most explosive player on the field. Hopefully Upshaw can develop those skills like Suggs did.

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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfish View Post

    In Oher's case, I think he doesn't use his hands well, probably a result of having short arms. And honestly, I just don't think he's the sharpest knife in the drawer. All the times he jumped offsides it was easy to see(since he was the only one on the field moving) that he has quick feet.
    Oher is very athletic. He has quick feet and his footwork isnt AS bad as some are making it out to be. His downfall is indeed his short arms. Offensive tackles with short arms have a tough time because pass rushers can close the gap quicker, get their hands on them sooner, and that allows them to in a sense "drive" or take control of the short-armed tackle. This is why Filmstudy believes that tackle candidates ideally should have as close to 34.50" arms or longer because those extra inches count big time when fending off pass rushers.

    Longer arms means pass rushers have a harder time getting into the body of a tackle and steering the tackle around. Tackles with long arms have the ability to use greater leverage. As athletic as Oher is, he will never have that leverage capability.

    KO, btw, has 35"+ arma iirc.

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  3. #93
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfish View Post
    In Oher's case, I think he doesn't use his hands well, probably a result of having short arms. And honestly, I just don't think he's the sharpest knife in the drawer. All the times he jumped offsides it was easy to see(since he was the only one on the field moving) that he has quick feet.
    Ditto and AMEN.

    That's why he dropped to begin with. The word "stupid" is plastered all over the book starting
    at about p. 37 and on. Ozzie never read the book.

    That's what I said all season about his hands. Doesn't use his hands well.

    He wrestles his opponents and gets his hands up under the arm pits. Just pull out some old
    tapes on him, especially at LT.

    He doesn't use his hands as a stun gun hitting his man in the chest. Even I did that at my lowly level and we weren't allowed to use hands back in the 60s and 70s. We used our fists and
    fore arms but I loved whacking my opponent in the chest and stomach when he jumped up
    and raised his arms to block a pass. He lost his wind every time.

    The arm pit hold goes back to his high school days as the book says and he never got rid
    of it in college or the pros.




  4. #94
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Oher is very athletic. He has quick feet and his footwork isnt AS bad as some are making it out to be. His downfall is indeed his short arms. Offensive tackles with short arms have a tough time because pass rushers can close the gap quicker, get their hands on them sooner, and that allows them to in a sense "drive" or take control of the short-armed tackle. This is why Filmstudy believes that tackle candidates ideally should have as close to 34.50" arms or longer because those extra inches count big time when fending off pass rushers.

    Longer arms means pass rushers have a harder time getting into the body of a tackle and steering the tackle around. Tackles with long arms have the ability to use greater leverage. As athletic as Oher is, he will never have that leverage capability.

    KO, btw, has 35"+ arma iirc.

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    Oher is athletic and excellent in run blocking but hates pass blocking like so many other
    linemen. Hell I loved it even though the shoulders hurt like hell after a while.

    Yea, KO is perfectly built as a LT but played LG. That's why he was so cool to look at back at
    LG along with the mammoth Big Mac next to him.

    You're right about teaching footwork technique and if KO loses weight he'll add speed to that
    footwork but he better get on the track every day in the offseason to do it and get one of
    Ray's juicers drinking only carrot and broccoli juice-lol.




  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post

    Ditto and AMEN.

    That's why he dropped to begin with. The word "stupid" is plastered all over the book starting
    at about p. 37 and on. Ozzie never read the book.

    That's what I said all season about his hands. Doesn't use his hands well.

    He wrestles his opponents and gets his hands up under the arm pits. Just pull out some old
    tapes on him, especially at LT.

    He doesn't use his hands as a stun gun hitting his man in the chest.

    The arm pit hold goes back to his high school days as the book says and he never got rid
    of it in college or the pros.
    Ed Reed only scored a 13 (out of 50 total points) on the wonderlic test, but I would say he is one of the smartest defensive players to ever play in the NFL.

    Considering Oher's life before meeting the Touhy family, I'd say the man has overcome some major obstacles regarding measured intelligence. I dont think the guy is ever going to win a Nobel prize or become a neurosurgeon, but you guys are acting like he cant even read. He's not Dexter Manley.

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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post

    Oher is athletic and excellent in run blocking but hates pass blocking like so many other
    linemen. Hell I loved it even though the shoulders hurt like hell after a while.

    Yea, KO is perfectly built as a LT but played LG. That's why he was so cool to look at back at
    LG along with the mammoth Big Mac next to him.

    You're right about teaching footwork technique and if KO loses weight he'll add speed to that
    footwork but he better get on the track every day in the offseason to do it and get one of
    Ray's juicers drinking only carrot and broccoli juice-lol.
    I think if you and I agree on anything it is that having Juan Castillo is going to bring out the best in KO wherever he ends up playing.

    I know I am in the minority, but I think under Castillo Oher could end up having his best season.

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  7. #97
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    I can't find that Suggs quote but I remember him saying it when he got drafted. It was
    his 40 time that dropped him. Again, that quick 1st step has nothing to do with 40 time.
    It's something natural where you have it or you don't.

    You're right about Oher's back ground and all but if I had the tutors he had, I would have
    gotten into Harvard. My nephew got a tutor for his ACTs after scoring 1100 points and increased his score to 1400. Luckily for me, colleges didn't require ACTs but we took them.
    I know some guys that went out and got drunk the night before their ACTs. They didn't have any of the study guides and stuff they have now, but Gruden said on national TV 2 years ago that Oher has no clue as to whom to block and should have after all this time.

    I said you were right on teaching the techniques and some foot speed can be added if
    he loses weight and starts running every day. Someone posted he has lost weight so
    he will already be quicker.


    Oher is one lucky guy. A decade ago he was living in a shack and today he is on the of richest guys in the country because of his size and family that adopted him. BTW, his brother who was little in the book and movie is now playing basketball for Loyola in Bmore just to be
    close to Michael. He took his entire team to Oher's house for a party. They all freaked out.

    Their father, Sean, still holds the SEC record for assists at Ole Miss. I met LeeAnne and Sean
    in Indy. They sat in front of Mista T and I in the club level and he is one muther ficker not to mess with. The movie made him look like he was a complete p*ssy who never made a major decision in that family. He wasn't too nice either and didn't even speak to LeeAnne. He sat
    next to his sister and talked to her the entire game. They must have had a fight-lol. She talked to me more than him and I thought he was gonna kick my ass but LeeAnne was a princess. I fell in love with her. She was worth an ass kicking-lol
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 04-25-2013 at 01:19 AM.




  8. #98

    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I can do that too.

    How many SB victories does Joe Thomas, Russell Okung, Jake Long, Trent Williams, Ryan Kalil, Jason Peters, Jared Veldheer, or D'Brickashaw Ferguson have?

    I think our two perspectives indicate one truth: the QB is the most important position and in today's NFL it is impossible to get to and win a SB without great QB play.

    Everything else matters, but in varying degrees and they are all dependent on the QB being capable.

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    I don't think I could possibly agree more....

    It's LT... then the Pacific Ocean.... and then you can talk about other positions on the field. The rest of the positions are far closer in value then ANYTHING is to the QB position. It is my "opinion" that LT is marginally the second most important position, but I can at least see how an argument can be made for passrusher, CB and maye even DT.

    But to say a LT cant contribute to wins/losses is just a ridiculously simpleton view of football. ALL the positions contribute to wins/losses, some are jsutless aparent then others.




  9. #99

    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPoeJangles View Post
    Just like every other position DOES contribute to wins. Again if it was as important as you say there is no way we win the Superbowl last year. Especially since, as you say "within 48 hours there is likely to be at least 3 teams with not only 1, but 2 better LT's than the Ravens. Cheifs/Pats/Rams. " Unless you believe Joe is that much better than Brady that he could overcome that.
    EVERY position contributes to wins, even long snappers...

    Well, Flacco was MUCH better then Brady throughout the playoffs. Isn't a better player, but WAS PLAYING better at that time.

    Additionally, the Pats roster, on the whole, was pretty lackluster, TBH. They have 2 plus TE's, 2 plus OT's, one of the best guards in football, and pretty much the rest of their roster is of average to below quality... outside of the QB position the ravens had a much stronger roster, complemented by a hit QB.
    It's not like I tried to say that the 2nd most important position is more important then all the others combined, just individually.




  10. #100
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    What team in the past decade has won with "serviceable" QB play? Hell, what team has even gotten to the SB with "serviceable" QB play? Roethlisberger's first SB may be the only one that you could argue, but he has been nothing short of great almost every season afterwards.

    Also, the three LT prospects in this draft are by and large considered some of the best overall players, so that doesnt necessarily prove or disprove that LT's are vital for the success of an offense.

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    Maybe not the last decade but the Ravens won a SB with Trent Dilfer, the Bucs won with Brad Johnson, the Redskins won with Mark Rypien. Every year it seems like there are 3-5 OTs taken in the first round. LTs that have any ability tend to go in the top half of the first round if not the first ten picks. I am not saying that a LT is more important than a QB. The QB is the most important position on the team in today's NFL. I am just saying that downplaying the need for a quality LT is only done by teams who don't have a quality LT. This is especially true if a team has just signed their QB to a $120 million contract.




  11. #101

    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPoeJangles View Post
    I am still trying to figure out how the second most important position on a team does not contribute to wins, almost the inverse. Again, there is no point arguing.
    you are mistakenly assigning causation when coorelation is a more orrect assessment. You see that many of the best LT's are on the worst teams.. That is true, because the worst teams pick in the draft where the best LT's are available, not because they don't help TERRIBLE organizations win. And if you look a little mroe deeply, some of the better TE's in football last eyar WERE on plaoff teams... Okung, Staley, Duane Brown, Solder/Vollmer, Clady, Trent Williams.. all top 10 tackles, all on playoff teams.




  12. #102
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    That's the point I was making when I said the last 3 of 4 SB LTs made were pro bowlers
    and Denver had Ryan Clady in the playoffs - all top teir LTs. The teams with the good
    QBs and LTs are usually in the playoffs.




  13. #103

    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    It seems to me you guys keep proving the point that having a great LT's is overrated. It is obvious you do not need one to win. Usually the teams that waste the resources to get one ensure themselves of remaining bad enough to keep drafting early enough to get good players to win. Also, I would argue that you would have a hard time saying that any of those players were the second most important player on their team, as you seem to state their importance. Again I believe it is nice to have a great LT, but it is clearly overstated.

    It is pointless to discuss this any further, as we will keep going around and around on the subject.




  14. #104
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    That's the point I was making when I said the last 3 of 4 SB LTs made were pro bowlers
    and Denver had Ryan Clady in the playoffs - all top teir LTs. The teams with the good
    QBs and LTs are usually in the playoffs.
    Detroit made the playoffs in the 2011/2012 season and their LT was Jeff Backus, who is about as average as you can get.

    Let's assume Jah Reid gets hurt and Oher remains at LT and KO at RT. They beat the Giants, which secured them a playoff spot. The Bengals game didn't matter.

    So, the Ravens - with below avg to avg play at LT - made the playoffs.

    Additionally, the "3 out of the last 4 SB LTs were pro-bowlers" is kind of misleading for several reasons. Number one, the pro-bowl is a joke and more of a popularity contest than anything (as evident by how long it took London Fletcher to make it). Number 2, both Joe Staley and Matt Light lost those SB appearances. The Giants won with David Diehl, who was terrible and the Ravens won with McKinnie, who only went to 1 pro-bowl (2009). Finally, McKinnie had nothing to do with the Ravens getting to the playoffs last year. He didn't. They made it with Oher, a hodgepodge at LG, and a rookie at RT. Even though it is probable that McKinnie could have outperformed Oher at LT every single game throughout the regular season, they still went with Oher at LT until they had no other choice (and no, Bobbie Williams at LG was not a choice).

    All I'm saying is that there is the QB and the offensive coordinator and then everyone else on offense. The NFL is littered with QB's and offensive coordinators making the players around them look like all-pro's. Drew Brees, Shaun Payton, and Jermon Bushrod is a prime example. Eli Manning, Kevin Gilbride, and David Diehl is another. Ben Roethlisberger and Bruce Arians made guys like Max Starks and Jonathan Scott look a lot better than what they actually were/are.
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  15. #105
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    They still got to the POs and SB with those LTs. I said one team didn't have a
    pro bowler LT and DET was terrible this year @ 4-12. They needed a LT.

    Man, we didnt start winning until we moved Oher to RT and KO to LG and inserted
    former pro bowler McKinnie at LT. That's when we picked up steam. WE lost all
    those games in the middle of the season with Oher at LT.

    Then we tore up the playoffs.

    Giants had a very physical and very good LT with BEatty.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 04-25-2013 at 12:34 PM.




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