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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    to the OP... Nope, not in the slightest. LT is still the 2nd most important position on the offensive side of the ball, and perhaps even moreso then any single defensive position.
    Couldn't disagree with you more. QB's and receivers could be argued to impact games more than OT's. 10-15 years ago, you would be right. The way the NFL is now puts the onus on the QB and receivers.

    I think a legitimate argument could even be made for corners, safeties, and pass rushers having more of an impact on today's NFL than OTs.

    That is just kind of the way the game is now.

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  2. #77

    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Couldn't disagree with you more. QB's and receivers could be argued to impact games more than OT's. 10-15 years ago, you would be right. The way the NFL is now puts the onus on the QB and receivers.

    I think a legitimate argument could even be made for corners, safeties, and pass rushers having more of an impact on today's NFL than OTs.

    That is just kind of the way the game is now.

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    yep, we disagree by a LOT...

    Yu brin up WR's? Really? How manysuperbowls do Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitz, Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, AJ Green, Ju;lio Jones, etc... the list can go on... have COMBINED. The answer is still zero.

    I would MAYBE agree with Corner. MAYBE. Offensively there is not a positiion that is close. Heck, TE is quite possibly more important then WR in today's NFL. WR is among the lower tier positions.




  3. #78
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Three of the top 5 picks in this year's draft could be LTs. To me, that speaks volumes about the importance of a LT in the NFL. A team can certainly win with a serviceable LT (just as a team can win with a serviceable QB), but it doesn't change the fact that LT is a coveted position.




  4. #79

    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    In answer to the OP, quite simply yes. Trying to argue with the who believe it to be overly important is like arguing with creationist or flat earthers, no matter how much empirical evidence you show them, they refuse to believe it. Very few people on this earth possess the quality to play the position, so when you can draft one, it makes sense. Using this year’s draft is even a weaker argument. There have been 4 guards drafted in the top 10 in the draft since 1980. Two are projected to go this year. The skill position players are weak this year.

    You really don't have to look much further than the Ravens to see how overrated the position is. People like to say, look how the offense took off when the put McKinney in, while down playing the rest of the changes. You could just as easily say, if LT was so important why, have the Ravens won almost twice as many playoff games (9) without Ogden, than with him(5). I don't think there could have been a much bigger drop off at that position. I know you can point to Flacco, but if LT was really the end all be all, would a QB that has never made a pro bowl really make that much more a difference than going from arguably the greatest LT of all time, to what many of the biggest defenders of the position call the worst LT in the game? Especially when an argument could be made that the rest of the team is worse (at least older) than when JO was playing.




  5. #80

    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPoeJangles View Post
    In answer to the OP, quite simply yes. Trying to argue with the who believe it to be overly important is like arguing with creationist or flat earthers, no matter how much empirical evidence you show them, they refuse to believe it. Very few people on this earth possess the quality to play the position, so when you can draft one, it makes sense. Using this year’s draft is even a weaker argument. There have been 4 guards drafted in the top 10 in the draft since 1980. Two are projected to go this year. The skill position players are weak this year.

    You really don't have to look much further than the Ravens to see how overrated the position is. People like to say, look how the offense took off when the put McKinney in, while down playing the rest of the changes. You could just as easily say, if LT was so important why, have the Ravens won almost twice as many playoff games (9) without Ogden, than with him(5). I don't think there could have been a much bigger drop off at that position. I know you can point to Flacco, but if LT was really the end all be all, would a QB that has never made a pro bowl really make that much more a difference than going from arguably the greatest LT of all time, to what many of the biggest defenders of the position call the worst LT in the game? Especially when an argument could be made that the rest of the team is worse (at least older) than when JO was playing.
    strawman.... EVERYONE knows that QB is the most important position in all of pro sports. You answered your own question. We won in spite of our QB when JO was here, and since have won in spite of not having a great LT. Great teams can be constructed with less then stellar players at ANY position, including QB, but doing so with merely adequate QB's is the hardest.

    And Oher isn't the worst... Arizona doesn't possess a better LT, Bushrod is equalish.... MIA is probaly worse off at the moment... With Gaither cut the Chargers have no one... that might be it though.

    what could be funny to some though, is that within 48 hours there is likely to be at least 3 teams with not only 1, but 2 better LT's than the Ravens. Cheifs/Pats/Rams.




  6. #81

    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    I am still trying to figure out how the second most important position on a team does not contribute to wins, almost the inverse. Again, there is no point arguing.




  7. #82

    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPoeJangles View Post
    I am still trying to figure out how the second most important position on a team does not contribute to wins, almost the inverse. Again, there is no point arguing.
    because it DOES contribute to wins. Just not in a visible way to peopel that watch football at a very basic, elementary level.

    What do you think is the second most important position. I can easily punch as many holes in that theory as you are with this theory. A LT on terrible team isnt going to make a team great, just as a WR, RB etc wont either. ONLY a QB has the opportunity to change the dynamic of a team. Even then, it's hard to do alone.




  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post

    because it DOES contribute to wins. Just not in a visible way to peopel that watch football at a very basic, elementary level.
    So...basically anyone who is disagreeing with you only watch football at a very basic and/or elementary level?

    That's interesting.

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  9. #84

    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Just like every other position DOES contribute to wins. Again if it was as important as you say there is no way we win the Superbowl last year. Especially since, as you say "within 48 hours there is likely to be at least 3 teams with not only 1, but 2 better LT's than the Ravens. Cheifs/Pats/Rams. " Unless you believe Joe is that much better than Brady that he could overcome that.




  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post

    yep, we disagree by a LOT...

    Yu brin up WR's? Really? How manysuperbowls do Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitz, Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, AJ Green, Ju;lio Jones, etc... the list can go on... have COMBINED. The answer is still zero.

    I would MAYBE agree with Corner. MAYBE. Offensively there is not a positiion that is close. Heck, TE is quite possibly more important then WR in today's NFL. WR is among the lower tier positions.

    I can do that too.

    How many SB victories does Joe Thomas, Russell Okung, Jake Long, Trent Williams, Ryan Kalil, Jason Peters, Jared Veldheer, or D'Brickashaw Ferguson have?

    I think our two perspectives indicate one truth: the QB is the most important position and in today's NFL it is impossible to get to and win a SB without great QB play.

    Everything else matters, but in varying degrees and they are all dependent on the QB being capable.

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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    Three of the top 5 picks in this year's draft could be LTs. To me, that speaks volumes about the importance of a LT in the NFL. A team can certainly win with a serviceable LT (just as a team can win with a serviceable QB), but it doesn't change the fact that LT is a coveted position.
    What team in the past decade has won with "serviceable" QB play? Hell, what team has even gotten to the SB with "serviceable" QB play? Roethlisberger's first SB may be the only one that you could argue, but he has been nothing short of great almost every season afterwards.

    Also, the three LT prospects in this draft are by and large considered some of the best overall players, so that doesnt necessarily prove or disprove that LT's are vital for the success of an offense.

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  12. #87
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    It's the speed in footwork. Either you have it or you don't. You can teach the techniques but not the speed.

    The thing that makes Suggs great is he gets by his blocker in 1 step - that's all. That's speed.

    JJ always said he doesn't have the speed or natural skills that Suggs had and he had to work for everything.

    Same with JO. He had the natural speed for footwork. He had natural abilities in all the techniques. He didn't have to work like JJ. It just came natural to him - that and his
    great size with the long 36" arms, wing span and size.

    You can go over footwork techniques like they do with CB drills but the speed is what
    makes it go. You gotta beat those great pass rushers with footwork speed and techniques.
    KO didn't have it on the end and that's why they moved him back.

    You either got it or you don't and neither Oher or KO had the footwork speed. Look
    how KO improved after moving back to his natural position. He had less area to cover
    and had Mac and Birk covering for him on both sides. Despite his great size he was
    a LG in college.

    He was asked about that when he was drafted. He said I was always a LG but will play
    wherever the put me. He tried it at RT and failed but excelled back at his natural
    position.

    KO and Mac looked like Mount Rushmore on the left side. That's when we started winning.
    I really hope they don't tamper with that but they might have to.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 04-24-2013 at 09:34 PM.




  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    It's the speed in footwork. Either you have it or you don't. You can teach the techniques but not the speed.

    The thing that makes Suggs great is he gets by his blocker in 1 step - that's all. That's speed.

    JJ always said he doesn't have the speed or natural skills that Suggs had and he had to work for everything.

    Same with JO. He had the natural speed for footwork. He had natural abilities in all the techniques. He didn't have to work like JJ. It just came natural to him - that and his
    great size with the long 36" arms, wing span and size.

    You can go over footwork techniques like they do with CB drills but the speed is what
    makes it go. You gotta beat those great pass rushers with footwork speed and techniques.
    KO didn't have it on the end and that's why they moved him back.

    You either got it or you don't and neither Oher or KO had the footwork speed. Look
    how KO improved after moving back to his natural position. He had less area to cover
    and had Mac and Birk covering for him on both sides. Despite his great size he was
    a LG in college.

    He was asked about that when he was drafted. He said I was always a LG but will play
    wherever the put me. He tried it at RT and failed but excelled back at his natural
    position.

    KO and Mac looked like Mount Rushmore on the left side. That's when we started winning.
    I really hope they don't tamper with that but they might have to.
    So basically, you believe that players cant get faster or more agile with practice and hard work.

    Suggs was a bad example. He ran a slower 40-time than Upshaw and Suggs has never been a speed guy. Suggs knows how to set up linemen with outstanding strength and pass rushing moves.

    KO played LT at Iowa State...not LG.

    If the Ravens bring McKinnie back for one more season then they could leave KO at guard and he would stand a good chance at making the pro-bowl. However, I dont think the Ravens really want McKinnie back. Sure, they have acknowledged to the media that there is some interest, but at this point I dont think it is substantial interest. Based on last season - if you dont buy the "McKinnie was hurt until Jah Reid got hurt" scenario - I think it was pretty obvious that McKinnie had worn out his welcome with the organization. Simply stated, McKinnie on an average day is a better LT than Oher on his best day. The fact that they weren't playing McKinnie and were basically experimenting with the OL all season leads me to believe that there is probably a very very very small chance that they actually bring McKinnie back.

    Considering that, their best bet will likely be to move KO to left tackle, leave Oher on the right, and draft one of the many talented guard prospects in this draft and look at project LT candidates in the mid round.

    Barrett Jones, Larry Warford, Travis Frederick, Justing Pugh, Dallas Thomas, Brian Winters, Jordan Mills and several others could be day-1 starters at LG.

    Then look at Chris Faulk, Luke Marquardt, Roger Gaines, etc as project LTs in the mid rounds.

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  14. #89
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    I said you can't teach the speed in footwork. You can go over the techniques but you have to have the natural speed to succeed on the ends. Oher and KO don't have that natural speed and failed miserably on the ends.

    Suggs was a perfect example on speed. Its his natural first step that beats his opponents to the backfield. That's what the players say. I'm going by them not you.

    The 40 time has nothing to do with it.

    Suggs dropped to us because of his poor 40 time and Phil Savage who was at his workout at
    ASU phoned Oz and said Suggs just dropped to us.

    Yet, it's that first step that makes him the greatest on the outside. Nobody knew that except Phil and Ozzie. The rest were like you relying on his 40 time.


    I'M A FOOTBALL PLAYER, NOT A TRACK STAR. T. SUGGS.




  15. #90

    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    I said you can't teach the speed in footwork. You can go over the techniques but you have to have the natural speed to succeed on the ends. Oher and KO don't have that natural speed and failed miserably on the ends.

    Suggs was a perfect example on speed. Its his natural first step that beats his opponents to the backfield. That's what the players say. I'm going by them not you.

    The 40 time has nothing to do with it.

    Suggs dropped to us because of his poor 40 time and Phil Savage who was at his workout at
    ASU phoned Oz and said Suggs just dropped to us.

    Yet, it's that first step that makes him the greatest on the outside. Nobody knew that except Phil and Ozzie. The rest were like you relying on his 40 time.


    I'M A FOOTBALL PLAYER, NOT A TRACK STAR. T. SUGGS.
    In Oher's case, I think he doesn't use his hands well, probably a result of having short arms. And honestly, I just don't think he's the sharpest knife in the drawer. All the times he jumped offsides it was easy to see(since he was the only one on the field moving) that he has quick feet.




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