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  1. #16
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?



    And as for Oher, here Film Study gives him a final grade of D- @ LT and
    C+ @ RT for the year.

    See link for what he needs to do to improve at RT.



    http://russellstreetreport.com/films...line-analysis/




  2. #17
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    And as for Oher, here Film Study gives him a final grade of D- @ LT and
    C+ @ RT for the year.

    See link for what he needs to do to improve at RT.


    http://russellstreetreport.com/films...line-analysis/

    He was pretty tough on all of them outside of Yanda and the team still won the SB
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  3. #18
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigPlayReceiver View Post
    I think you're right.

    Back in the fall, me and few other cats (Leach, Arnie IIRC, and a few others) were kicking around the "3-man wall" idea as what's really required to have an effective and efficient passing game (provided your QB is not a bum).
    Three-man wall => G-C-G or T-G-C or C-G-T. The thought behind it relates to...
    1) QB comfort and where he's confident that he can step to/scramble to if he feels and/or sees pressure, (<-- can make a reasonable conclusion with data)
    2) It's easier for your blocking back to execute, and (<-- hard to prove with data)
    3) You can scheme a focused game plan around it (<-- impossible to prove with data)

    I don't know what we'll have at C, but Gino looks to be well-regarded by the FO, so we're only looking for depth there I'm figuring. T is a roster hole, so that is what's driving my draft strategy of getting the best T as early as possible. Looking at McKinnie's reliability and Oher's poor performance, someone who didn't play there in 2012, is likely to play most of the snaps there in 2013. That's a big deal to me.

    To your point, there's value from Armstead in the 2nd on through to Nixon, Mills, Bakhtiari, etc. in the 4th and 5th. I'm very interested to see what we do.

    Referencing Steve's article and follow-up article that's coming, I'd like to take that info and then map it against some tape from Joe, Rogers, Cutler, and maybe a few others to see if the "3 man wall" has any validity in the real world.
    Yea I like the three man wall, but I was of the line of thinking I'd rather it be a g c g wall, because then all you have to ask of your tackles is to not get beat inside, push the defender wide, don't square up so he can get inside then joe can step up into a clean pocket if the wall is in the interior.

    I'd still take a left tackle if I had the option though




  4. #19
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Film gave Yanda final grades of A and A- for the year. See link above.

    Film was always right and we lost the first game of the year in Philly when Oher was beat on the outside and Joe was sacked and stripped on the first play of the game. People talked about Rice's poor running in the playoffs but there were tons of times he didn't see holes from his big blockers on the line so he became most effective catching short passes over the line. If Oher was so good he'd still be at LT but he almost got Joe killed in Philly.

    We won the SB because of the great blocking on the left side of the line and up the middle over KO, Birk and Yanda.

    KO got final grades of A- and A- plus a B for play.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 04-22-2013 at 06:33 PM.




  5. #20
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    JO spoiled us so much at LT that we're now seeing just how much we miss him with
    Oher failing miserably there.

    As for Solo's remarks:

    CASE IN POINT.

    Ravens started winning when McKinnie finally showed up at LT and beat the shit out
    of his side of the line along with KO at LG. They were like Mount Rushmore together.

    This showed how desperate we were until a good LT showed up. JO also had a great LG next to him in Mulitalo.
    I certainly think that JO spoiled the Ravens fan base. One of the greats, for sure.

    However, was the success of the OL because of McKinnie? Or was it because of KO? I think that is an interesting debate because while McKinnie played really well in the playoffs, he wasn't overly outstanding. However, the interior OL of KO, Birk, and Yanda were phenomenal.

    I get that you're all hard core "I hate Michael Oher" and everything, but when I watch the playoffs I am more impressed by the play calling and execution from Flacco than I am from McKinnie (or Oher).

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco
    CASE IN POINT:

    SF got into the playoffs and SB with a great Joe Staley so there were two very good
    LTs (both making the pro bowl at various times) in SB 47.


    We missed the boat when Mike Nolan jumped in front of Ozzie to grab Joe Staley, whom we just beat in the SB but he is a good LT. The Ravens presser after drafting Grubbs was like a morgue after just missing out on Staley. BTW, that move got Nolan fired when he gave up a future #1 to get Nolan and he couldn't bring in top talent the rest of the year and the team failed. It bit him in the ass.
    Joe Staley is far from great and neither is McKinnie. Those guys are good players and Staley has been consistently solid for the Niners for a long time. However, I'd hardly call him great. I'd call him really good. This goes back to that whole "elite" term people like to throw around. It's arbitrary and means nothing. Staley is a good fit for what the Niner's do. I'd also like to point out that Staley has a hell of a guard lined up right beside him in Mike Iupati. Now, you could certainly make a case that Iupati is one of the elite guards in the NFL.

    The whole point of the OL is to have 5 guys who can function together because the sum total is greater than individual parts. If Oher ends up being the LT, but KO, Gino, Yanda, and the RT end up being studs, then Oher's downfalls become much less apparent and impact the game plan significantly less.

    Again, the game plan can work around inadequacies. Boldin wasn't a fast guy at all, but he was money in the slot and could out-muscle DB's for the ball. Under Cam, Boldin was asked to work the sideline and run deep patterns, which caused him to have difficulties evading coverage. Under Caldwell, Boldin played predominately in the slot, worked the middle of the field, and was schemed to work against smaller nickel corners and linebackers in the red zone. Clearly, Caldwell understood what Boldin's strengths were more than Cam and game planned accordingly. That's just one example.

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco
    CASE IN POINT:

    And don't forget the Squeelers probs that coincided with their o-line probs. They really
    need a good LT. They drafted DeCastro and Adams and still had probs.
    You're right. The Steelers do need a LT...oh wait. That's right. They won a SB with less than stellar OL play and they got to the SB in 2010 with an OT rotation of Jonathan Scott and Max Starks. Neither of which are outstanding tackles.

    Sorry man. The Steelers are a really bad example of how important the LT is. Ben Roethlisberger thrives under pressure and is one of the best QBs in the game after the play breaks down. If anything, the Steelers are a great example of why having a stud LT is NOT imperative anymore.


    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco
    Yup, good LTs are needed as JO proved year after year.
    JO was a Hall of Famer and also played in a different NFL. Though he only retired a few years ago, the NFL has really evolved the last 2-3 seasons. Great offenses are now almost entirely based on a brilliant offensive game planning and an elevated level of play from the QB. Why do you think so many HC positions are being filled by offensive guys? I think Gus Bradley may be one of the only new HC hires that isn't an offense guy. It is also why guys like Jay Gruden are getting serious HC looks while Mike Zimmer, not so much.

    Arizona - Bruce Arians
    San Diego - Mike McCoy
    Cleveland - Rod Chudzinksi
    Buffalo - Doug Marrone
    Chicago - Jim Trestman
    Kansas City - Andy Reid
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  6. #21
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    The Steelers entire o-line is a major problem for their demise. It's been injured and had poor play even from their #1 pick Pouncey. Their o-line and secondary are their worse areas as even Tebow split the secondary to beat them a year ago.

    But hell, you argued with Film STudy all year on his grades while most of the internet
    went along with him and that silly O-LINE DOUBTERS THREAD stayed on the front page
    most of the entire regular season.


    I said KO was part or the equation with Big Mac on the left side and he got an A- for the
    year plus up the middle with KO, Birk and Yanda. I keep pulling the Denver tape out just to see them destroying their side of the line and Denver had Dumvervil whom we just got.
    Also SF had some of the best LBs in the game we ran over in the first half racking up all those points and Joe finally wore them out by the second half when he ran out the clock
    icing the game with those final FGs from Tucker.

    Don;t forget the tons of SBs and playoffs Brady got into with Matt Light protecting him.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 04-22-2013 at 06:50 PM.




  7. #22

    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    JO spoiled us so much at LT that we're now seeing just how much we miss him with
    Oher failing miserably there.

    As for Solo's remarks:

    CASE IN POINT.

    Ravens started winning when McKinnie finally showed up at LT and beat the shit out
    of his side of the line along with KO at LG. They were like Mount Rushmore together.

    This showed how desperate we were until a good LT showed up. JO also had a great LG next to him in Mulitalo.

    CASE IN POINT:

    SF got into the playoffs and SB with a great Joe Staley so there were two very good
    LTs (both making the pro bowl at various times) in SB 47.


    We missed the boat when Mike Nolan jumped in front of Ozzie to grab Joe Staley, whom we just beat in the SB but he is a good LT. The Ravens presser after drafting Grubbs was like a morgue after just missing out on Staley. BTW, that move got Nolan fired when he gave up a future #1 to get Nolan and he couldn't bring in top talent the rest of the year and the team failed. It bit him in the ass.

    CASE IN POINT:

    And don't forget the Squeelers probs that coincided with their o-line probs. They really
    need a good LT. They drafted DeCastro and Adams and still had probs.

    Yup, good LTs are needed as JO proved year after year.
    1. It's funny how you cite Filmstudy in your next few posts. Go look up his postseason grades for McKinnie, then get back to me. McKinnie's playoff performance has been the single most overrated thing about the Ravens in the last 3 months.

    2. Speaking of Super Bowl LTs, how about David Diehl last year? Graded out as the single worst LT in the entire league, I believe.

    3. Pittsburgh made two Super Bowls and won one with a horrific o-line. They do not help your case in any way.

    4. Judging by how poorly our offense played, how did JO prove that you "need" a good LT? Clearly they weren't successful when they had one.
    Last edited by GaTechRavens; 04-22-2013 at 07:06 PM.




  8. #23
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    The Steelers entire o-line is a major problem for their demise. It's been injured and had poor play even from their #1 pick Pouncey. Their o-line and secondary are their worse areas as even Tebow split the secondary to beat them a year ago.
    You're right. Their "demise" probably had nothing to do with injuries...you know...to their starting QB...

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco
    But hell, you argued with Film STudy all year on his grades while most of the internet
    went along with him and that silly O-LINE DOUBTERS THREAD stayed on the front page
    most of the entire regular season.
    You know, I never understood this about you. Someone disagrees with you and then you go into this mode where you not only make shit up, but you do these stealthy little jabs at folks. It's very passive aggressive.

    First of all, I may have disagreed with Filmstudy on certain things, but to sit here and state that I "argued" with him all year is completely absurd and made up. Secondly, that thread was started after a really good performance from Oher at LT, KO at RT, and Ramon Harewood at LG. I think most people on this forum - at that time - were pleasantly surprised by how well the OL seemed to play during the pre-season and the early part of the season. I know I was. Obviously, things change. Finally, even then, I was still adamant about how important the game plan was and how important it was for Cam to game plan for the inadequacies of the offense. I've always felt that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco
    I said KO was part or the equation with Big Mac on the left side and he got an A- for the
    year plus up the middle with KO, Birk and Yanda. I keep pulling the Denver tape out just to see them destroying their side of the line and Denver had Dumvervil whom we just got.
    Also SF had some of the best LBs in the game we ran over in the first half racking up all those points and Joe finally wore them out by the second half when he ran out the clock
    icing the game with those final FGs from Tucker.

    Don;t forget the tons of SBs and playoffs Brady got into with Matt Light protecting him.
    The only thing that I have ever said regarding Oher's performance at LT and McKinnie's performance at LT was - IMO - their success was more based on Jim Caldwell. That is my opinion and the success of other teams without top flight LT's prove my point.

    You can sit there and say all you want that McKinnie graded out as an A- from Filmstudy's evaluations. I'm not arguing that McKinnie played well in the playoffs. I'm simply stating that I think Jim Caldwell's play calling and game planning had the most to do with the playoff success and SB victory, which is why I think that it won't matter who is at LT or RT. Caldwell's game plan and play calling will effectively utilize the talents of the offensive personnel in order to exploit the weaknesses of the opposing defense.
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  9. #24
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by GaTechRavens View Post
    1. It's funny how you cite Filmstudy in your next few posts. Go look up his postseason grades for McKinnie, then get back to me. McKinnie's playoff performance has been the single most overrated thing about the Ravens in the last 3 months.
    When did he play best? His best game was his Wild Card effort against the Colts. He scored a .85 for that game and I’d adjust that to a B+ based on competition. His aggregate score for the playoffs was .74 which I’d adjust to a C+ for the level of competition. He faced Dwight Freeney, Elvis Dumervil, Chandler Jones, and Aldon Smith. I scored him for 8.5 pressures and 2.17 sacks (1 + + 2/3), no other QHs, and no penalties in those 4 games.
    not sure what you're getting at...
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  10. #25
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Everyone forgets the game that clinched the AFC North and kicked off the SB run was against the Giants with Oher at LT. Flacco had a perfect game. It was also Caldwell's first real game to gameplan for if you exclude the Broncos game where Caldwell was thrown in as OC at the last minute.

    I think more of it is in the coaching, scheming and play calling. We saw a lot of different play calling in the Giants game and during the playoff run. Flacco was really moving around in the pocket. With Cameron, we all know the play calling was predictable and he liked to call the same 7 step drops and leave Flacco in the same spot. Caldwell immediately started moving the pocket around which helps negate some of the pass rush. It's harder to rush the passer if you don't know exactly where he'll be.
    Last edited by Paintballguy; 04-22-2013 at 10:03 PM.




  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paintballguy View Post
    Everyone forgets the game that clinched the AFC North and kicked off the SB run was against the Giants with Oher at LT. Flacco had a perfect game. It was also Caldwell's first real game to gameplan for if you exclude the Broncos game where Caldwell was thrown in as OC at the last minute.

    I think more of it is in the coaching, scheming and play calling. We saw a lot of different play calling in the Giants game and during the playoff run. Flacco was really moving around in the pocket. With Cameron, we all know the play calling was predictable and he liked to call the same 7 step drops and leave Flacco in the same spot. Caldwell immediately started moving the pocket around which helps negate some of the pass rush. It's harder to rush the passer if you don't know exactly where he'll be.
    +1

    Pretty much sums up how I feel. I dont get what other folks don't understand about this perspective.

    No one is saying McKinnie isnt a good player and no one is saying he didnt play a vital role in the playoffs and SB. In the same breath, this perspective has nothing to do with Oher at all.

    Simply stated: Jim Caldwell's game planning and play calling were the ultimate catalyst for this offense finally clicking. And that is why I (and others) feel that this offense and team can still be successful with Oher or KO at left tackle next year. If they end up brining McKinnie back for one more year, that works too. Ultimately, Caldwell is driving this offense and will play to the strengths of the individual and the team.

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  12. #27

    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    These threads go places. Is having a great LT overrated? It's like money, when you don't have any it's really important. Given a choice between a good LT or not is a no brainer. The other half of the equation is does the other team have someone who can exploit having a weak LT? So it matters more when he's getting burned. To ignore the position to the point that you can put any stiff in there is foolish. The question that should be asked is do we have a good LT?




  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfish View Post
    These threads go places. Is having a great LT overrated? It's like money, when you don't have any it's really important. Given a choice between a good LT or not is a no brainer. The other half of the equation is does the other team have someone who can exploit having a weak LT? So it matters more when he's getting burned. To ignore the position to the point that you can put any stiff in there is foolish. The question that should be asked is do we have a good LT?
    See, you're taking to a complete extreme.

    By your post I can only assume that your interpreting a lot of the posts in this thread to mean that the Ravens could plug Oneill Cousins in at LT and everything would be dandy. I dont think anyone in their right mind is saying that or anything close.

    Teams like the Packers, Saints, Steelers, Giants, and now the Ravens have proven that you do not need an elite LT to be successful.

    I am sure if Eric Fisher were to fall into the Raven's laps they would draft the kid. However, with Caldwell as the OC and with Juan Castillo helping out, I think the offense would still be productive and successful without an elite LT.

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  14. #29
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    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    I don't know whether you MUST have a top-10 LT to succeed. Or even a top-20.

    But, though no expert, I do know you must have an LT. And we don't. We do not have anyone who has proven he can be a consistently above-average LT.

    Oher has proven he can NOT consistently produce above-average performances at LT. KO has proven he is a top-quality G, but has proven nothing at all as an LT. And we have no one else signed remotely capable of playing LT .

    Solution? I'll leave it to the many more intelligent than me. IMHO, we should sign McKinnie and draft a developmental LT in round 2 or 3, OR two LT prospects in later rounds.

    When asking how good an LT we need, remember how much Flacco means to the team.

    PS: I'd like to see KO surprise me and become an above-average LT, but remember who we have to step into LG. Yah Reid? Ramon Harewood?




  15. #30

    Re: Is having a great LT overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    See, you're taking to a complete extreme.

    By your post I can only assume that your interpreting a lot of the posts in this thread to mean that the Ravens could plug Oneill Cousins in at LT and everything would be dandy. I dont think anyone in their right mind is saying that or anything close.

    Teams like the Packers, Saints, Steelers, Giants, and now the Ravens have proven that you do not need an elite LT to be successful.

    I am sure if Eric Fisher were to fall into the Raven's laps they would draft the kid. However, with Caldwell as the OC and with Juan Castillo helping out, I think the offense would still be productive and successful without an elite LT.

    Sent from my DROID X2 using Forum Runner
    Fair enough, but Oniel Cousins is extreme too. While an elite LT is not probable, I'll take competent and that should be sufficient. Every player can't be all pro. We'll probably never see another JO, he was a freak. It's been argued Oher is a viable option but I've got the Polomalu's strip sack burned in my memory.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-forces-fumble

    I have no idea what he could have been thinking but that one play lost the game. Has he elevated his play since then? Not much if at all.

    We'll see what happens, but I suspect we'll make a play for a LT as there are some options out there. After the draft, maybe a few more.

    PS: I'd like to see KO surprise me and become an above-average LT, but remember who we have to step into LG. Yah Reid? Ramon Harewood?
    If KO can play solid at left tackle his value would be elevated. I'm not sure he can but it's easier to find a quality guard than a LT. Gino would be helped by being flanked by Yanda and KO at guards.




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