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  1. #121
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God



    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    OK let me correct you then.
    All natural things, events and beings have a cause. that long string of caused events msut have an un-caused CAUSE.

    That Un-caused cause must be SUPERNATURAL as, ALL NATURAL things, events and beings have a precursor cause.

    That suoernatural event, thing, being that is the uncaused cause can sometimes be called God. It s supernatural, in the sense that it is not of this natural world(and by world i mean the entirety of matter in the universe).
    So all things need a cause except supernatural things.

    Next step: Show the world something supernatural that can prove this statement.




  2. #122
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    When and where did I ever state my belief on how the universe started?
    Well you agree that everything that acts is caused by something else making it act. Nothing causes itself. Right?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  3. #123
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirdowski View Post
    There's a very interesting documentary floating around online called "Dangerous Knowledge", I'd highly recommend checking it out. It elaborates much more on the ideas I was referring to.
    Thanks. I watched both parts last night. Very interesting. 4 most highly intelligent men beside themselves due to problems they couldn't quite solve on paper. You know, if they all had been aware of Hermetic knowledge, all might have been spared their madness.




  4. #124
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    Does it mean, if you donít understand something, and the community of physicists donít understand it, that means God did it? Is that how you want to play this game? Because if it is, hereís a list of things in the past that the physicists at the time didnít understand [and now we do understand] [...]. If thatís how you want to invoke your evidence for God, then God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance thatís getting smaller and smaller and smaller as time moves on - so just be ready for that to happen, if thatís how you want to come at the problem.


    "The Moon, the Tides and why Neil DeGrasse Tyson is Colbert's God". © 2007-2011 The Science Network. January 20, 2011.

    Food for thought.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  5. #125
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    Good points ASB.

    At least for me, I don't think it's as reflexive as the quote suggests. For example, I don't understand nuclear fission. But I do know there's a tremendous amounts of science behind. Thus, simply because I don't understand it doesn't automatically trigger a belief on a higher power.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  6. #126
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    How can anyone still believe in a higher power?

    Take for instance, Library of Alexandria.
    A treasure of knowledge during a time when they believed in a higher power.
    The knowledge was destroyed.
    And it has taken many, many centuries to rediscover so much knowledge which was lost.

    We are probably still behind. There is so much we still do not understand.
    So, it is ongoing.
    And sometimes, in a world so brutal and so beautiful, faith sees one through the worst of times, because it might be one of the only ways some men can reconcile events and outcomes.
    That certainly doesn't prove anything, but it does show why many still have faith in whatever form they have been exposed to or been taught or have discovered for themselves.




  7. #127
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    Does it mean, if you don’t understand something, and the community of physicists don’t understand it, that means God did it? Is that how you want to play this game? Because if it is, here’s a list of things in the past that the physicists at the time didn’t understand [and now we do understand] [...]. If that’s how you want to invoke your evidence for God, then God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance that’s getting smaller and smaller and smaller as time moves on - so just be ready for that to happen, if that’s how you want to come at the problem.


    "The Moon, the Tides and why Neil DeGrasse Tyson is Colbert's God". © 2007-2011 The Science Network. January 20, 2011.

    Food for thought.
    That's not how I want to play the game, that;s part of the conversation and generally where it moves to once someone starts talking about proof.

    But I would disagree that scientific ignorance is getting smaller and smaller. They may be figuring out things we already know exist or know about. But, it seems to me, for every one thing we figure out we discover there are 1,000 more things behind said thing that we don't know about or existed. And every time we figure out one of those things there are 1,000 things we discover about those. And on and on it goes.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  8. #128

    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    So all things need a cause except supernatural things.

    Next step: Show the world something supernatural that can prove this statement.
    all natural "things" need a cause. The big bang needs a cause, as it is part of our natural universe. I can not show you proof of something outside of our natural universe by DEFINITION.

    We can all agree that the cause and effect relationship of our universe appears to have begun with the big bang. That necessitates an uncaused cause which is not part of our natural universe, i.e. supernatural.

    I said from the beginning that this is the philosophical proof of god, not scientific. God cannot be proven or disproven scientifically. it is not of this natural universe, and therefore is unobservable.




  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    Does it mean, if you donít understand something, and the community of physicists donít understand it, that means God did it? Is that how you want to play this game? Because if it is, hereís a list of things in the past that the physicists at the time didnít understand [and now we do understand] [...]. If thatís how you want to invoke your evidence for God, then God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance thatís getting smaller and smaller and smaller as time moves on - so just be ready for that to happen, if thatís how you want to come at the problem.


    "The Moon, the Tides and why Neil DeGrasse Tyson is Colbert's God". © 2007-2011 The Science Network. January 20, 2011.

    Food for thought.

    Completely valid, but I don't subscribe to, and nothing I have put forward suggests, a god of the gaps defense, like that which you linked to is pointing out. The point I have been trying to drive home is that science doesn't prove anything, because it can't. Science only, and can only, disprove:


    "In so far as a scientific statement speaks about reality, it must be falsifiable: and in so far as it is not falsifiable, it does not speak about reality"


    "The old scientific ideal of*episteme*ó of absolutely certain, demonstrable knowledge ó has proved to be an idol. The demand for scientific objectivity makes it inevitable that every scientific statement must remain*tentative*for*ever.


    - Karl Raimund Popper, The Logic of Scientific Discovery


    These facts only further add to the analogy of science and reality, that a subset cannot prove a superset. This is the rational and scientific foundation for my belief in "God".
    ďGreat minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.Ē

    ĖEleanor Roosevelt




  10. #130
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by RavenNation620 View Post
    After reading this quote


    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"


    I know most of you have probably seen it, but I'm kinda bored and want to start a religious debate. So christians, please explain your reasoning.
    This quote (or its theme) has been around for centuries and dealt with ad nauseum. I don't want to insult you but any remedial work that deals with God's existence has any number of obvious responses to this take.

    First of all, can good come from evil doings? If so, God has a very good reason to allow evil.

    Second, can beings with free will (that would be us) actually be free and at the same time compelled to act in ways that are not evil?

    Third, God loves us and wants us to respond to him in love. Only free beings can love, love cannot be compelled or it is not love. By allowing us to rebel we bring evil into the world. There are some things God cannot do, such as sin, or do things not logical such as making a square circle or a one-ended stick. God also cannot create beings free to choose to love him that also do not have the choice to not love him and commit evil acts.

    Fourth, what is evil to an atheist/materialist/naturalist? How do you define it? You must consent to some kind of moral law which you use to measure such things, but moral law cannot exist without God. This isn't just a Christian position, many, many famous atheist philosophers agree such as Bertrand Russell and Nietzsche.

    Let me use the words of Ravi Zacharias to drive this last point home: "When you say there's too much evil in this world you assume there's good. When you assume there's good, you assume there's such a thing as a moral law on the basis of which to differentiate between good and evil. But if you assume a moral law, you must posit a moral Law Giver, but that's Who you're trying to disprove and not prove. Because if there's no moral Law Giver, there's no moral law. If there's no moral law, there's no good. If there's no good, there's no evil. What is your question?"

    I could go on. That said, my question is "why is there any good at all in the world?" A really smart guy once said "the heart of man is desperately wicked." If you doubt this think for a moment on this. How would you feel if there was a web site where everybody could go and see all of your thoughts you have ever had? How much of that would you want to hide? How would you feel about having your thoughts go across an LED screen on your forehead for others to see when you are talking to them. So again, given that the hearts of men are wicked, why is there so much good in the world?




  11. #131
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by RavenNation620 View Post
    Well I didn't come up with the quote obviously but I my interpretation is that it applies to all gods. Evil=anything negative and all suffering in this case.
    Your definition of evil is lacking. When Ted Bundy raped and murdered young women that was negative to the women and their families, but not to Ted. So based on whose negative experience do we base evil?

    In regard to suffering, most people who have had open heart surgery suffer a lot of pain after. Is open heart surgery evil?




  12. #132
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by RavenNation620 View Post
    I know that's most christians justifications for it, which is why it's impossible to win a debate with them because all they resort to in the end is "god said so" "we weren't meant to understand god", and they basically speak FOR god, making up anything that seems like a quick response when they can't come up with anything rational.
    Please quote where I said this once. Your take isn't even responsive to the post you quote.




  13. #133
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    Trap has a point, ultimately this debate comes down to faith. No amount of logic will convince the faithful that god is not there, and no amount of exhorting will convince a skeptic to take it on faith.
    Nonsense. You are well considered on this idea but this take is not. Faith is about trust, it is NOT believing without evidence. Faith is about trusting the God I know exists. But I must have logic and reason to believe such a thing.

    We are to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, strength, and MIND. God wants us to think. He commands us to be able to explain why we are Christians, though unfortunately very few can. The church has failed miserably in being intellectual in this debate, though people like Aquinas up until now have laid very solid cases for God's existence.

    The very morality that exists and is implied in the opening post is excellent evidence that there is a Moral Law Giver.




  14. #134
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by darb72 View Post
    One of my students asked why God didn't perform miracles anymore, since they were such a huge part of the Bible. I thought about an old song and used that to explain my views.

    There's an old Ray Steven's song called, "The Mississippi Squirrel Revival". This kid goes to church and is showing off a squirrel he caught to his buddy. The squirrel gets loose during service and hilarity ensues. The last verse ends, "Well you've heard the Bible story I guess, how He parted the waters of Moses to pass. Oh the miracles God has wrought in this ol' world. But the one I'll remember to my dying day is how he put that Church back on the narrow way with a half-crazed Mississippi squirrel."

    God showed us miracles back then because we didn't know about Him. The Christian religion is based on faith, and if God were going around sending plagues of locust, or splitting the seas every other day, then we wouldn't have faith. See, I can touch my computer monitor. I don't have faith that it's there. I have proof. I think the miracles God works now are less obvious. Like the German scientist working on the atomic bomb. They missed a simple calculation at the very beginning and that's why the good guys were able to win that war. That, to me, is a miracle because folks who work with radioactive material tend to be the sort of anal retentive types who double and triple check their figures.
    There are less than 300 miracles in the Bible, which was written over 1500 or more years. That is less than one every five years on average, but the miracles are concentrated into few segments of history. Moses, Elijah and Elisha, and Jesus and his followers. Miracles from God are done to give proof that the prophet is from God. That, it seems to me, are their purpose.




  15. #135
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    I'd say its the opposite. If there is no afterlife, then life is all the more meaningful and precious because its all we get. One shot, no more than 100 trips around the sun beginning to end. And then all that's left of you is the impact, good or ill you left for those after you.

    In a universe with a heaven, what is life expect another version of the womb? A short, limited experience before eternity. Heaven gives us a place to fix our regrets, settle old grudges, tell people we love them. But if its not there, then we have to use our life for that.
    If there is no spiritual realm, nothing beyond the material and the 4 space-time dimensions then life is truly meaningless. In the end, you leave nothing behind. The future of this universe, as current cosmology lays it out, is that the universe in the distant future will die of heat death. No stars will be left, space will continue to expand (as it is now) and will become so stretched out that atoms will no longer form because the space between sub-atomic particles will be too great for it. There will be no life, nothing, not even atoms.

    That is the future based only on materialism. What meaning does your life have when it will all be erased.

    And your experiences, etc? They are nothing but electrochemical reactions in your brain if there is nothing else. Your joys and pains are just a bit different in very similar processes, as are your memories. They are just arrangements of atoms.
    Last edited by Greg; 06-13-2013 at 11:50 AM.




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