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  1. #16
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God



    As far as religions go, it's a personal thing. I'm non-denominational and an independent Christian.
    I haven't been a member of a church since 92 . Our church of 2,000 members was split twice and went down to 300 after a pastor lied about his true doctrinal beliefs and tried to change ours. A guy after that came in and built it back up and the next guy came in and slammed a book down in front of the deacons and said this is the way we're doing things from now on and anyone that doesn't like it can leave. We'll still get 800 more. A lot of us left and he never got those 800 members. So much for the book.

    I've been going to a fundamental Methodist Church for 5 years in Bel Air and was mad when he slammed the Baptists. He even criticized the Christmas production at the Baptist Church two lights up the road and said we don't have big productions. We worship.

    A lot of people get saved from that production. If he sent his people there they might get saved too.

    It was funny but I went to Grace Fellowship Church for 5 years where former Baltimore Colt Joe Erhmann of their famous sack pack is on their pastorial staff. That church was always slamming the Baptists in their little dramas they have. What was funny is Grace is a Baptist Church in doctrine. They believe straight down the Baptist line including baptism by emersion and they don't even know it. They used to baptize people in Stan White's swimming pool.

    I always laughed at them because all their pastors came from Dallas Theological Seminary and that had Baptist doctrine including the end times positions led by Woolvard and Ryrie. It's moved some over the years away from them.

    So the religions are always dissing each other while keeping the divisions amongst them alive. The pastor in the church I grew up didn't diss other religions and he said there will be no gay bashing here but the other religions still do it.

    Not sure if I'm staying in that Methodist Church or not. I'll let it slide this time before leveling the pastor with how he's creating dis-harmony from his own pulpit.


    But accepting Christ as Lord and Savior is a personal thing and has nothing to do with the church other than that's where you might get saved and grow. It's not the church that saves you. It's God and he uses it to do just that.

    It's the religions that screw things up.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 04-07-2013 at 04:59 PM.




  2. #17
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    I think the most logical thing is to acknowledge the difference between organized religion, religion, and faith.

    As someone who enjoys theology and history, I think one could reasonably argue that the invention of organized religion came through political aspirations and an effective way for income. I realize that sounds rather cynical, but historically men of power have always used organized religion for their own gain.

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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I think the most logical thing is to acknowledge the difference between organized religion, religion, and faith.

    As someone who enjoys theology and history, I think one could reasonably argue that the invention of organized religion came through political aspirations and an effective way for income. I realize that sounds rather cynical, but historically men of power have always used organized religion for their own gain.

    Sent from my DROID X2 using Forum Runner
    Great point.

    Christianity, not just Catholicism, owes a good deal to emperor Constantine.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




  4. #19
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    Trap has a point, ultimately this debate comes down to faith. No amount of logic will convince the faithful that god is not there, and no amount of exhorting will convince a skeptic to take it on faith.
    What's the old saying?

    Something like... for those that believe no proof is necessary, for those that don't no proof is possible. That's close to it anyway.

    It does come down to faith though, in a very simple explanation of why do I believe in God? All this something didn't come from nothing.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  5. #20
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    In reference to Darb's post on miracles, I am reminded of a little throw away line from Pulp Fiction.

    Jules is talking about miracles, saying you can't judge them on merit. He uses the example of "God finding your car keys". There's a lot of substance behind that line and it ties into my beliefs.

    Me locating my car keys in of itself is trivial. But what if the 20 minutes I took searching my house for those keys caused me to avoid a 10 car pile up on the same road I take to work every day?

    Sometimes miracles are not tangible to finite beings. Just because you cannot see them doesn't mean they are not occurring everyday and in ways we cannot fathom.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post

    What's the old saying?

    Something like... for those that believe no proof is necessary, for those that don't no proof is possible. That's close to it anyway.

    It does come down to faith though, in a very simple explanation of why do I believe in God? All this something didn't come from nothing.
    I always appreciated a lot of the pagan beliefs. Life was a cycle. You were born from mother, mother earth nourished you, watched you grow, and when it was your time to go you returned to mother earth.

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  7. #22
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    I'm reminded of my philosophy classes now.

    Any of you atheists ever consider Pascal's Wager?

    If you truly believe there's no God, then life, by definition, is nothing more than trivial events and simple pleasures until you die.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  8. #23
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Speaking of history and the church, here's how Constantine saved the church and incorporated into the state and it became the Roman Catholic Church. Persecutions of the Christians stopped and he brought them into the gov't and returned confiscated lands and gave lands to the Catholic Church as its wealth was created.

    THE CHURCH IS POOR AND HUMBLE. ST PETER.

    THE CHURCH IS NO LONGER POOR. CATHOLIC POPE.

    AND THE CHURCH IS NO LONGER HUMBLE. ST THOMAS ACQINAS TO POPE.

    Caveat - this is a wiki link but it seems spot on.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constan...d_Christianity




  9. #24
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    Speaking of history and the church, here's how Constantine saved the church and incorporated into the state and it became the Roman Catholic Church. Persecutions of the Christians stopped and he brought them into the gov't and returned confiscated lands and gave lands to the Catholic Church as its wealth was created.

    THE CHURCH IS POOR AND HUMBLE. ST PETER.

    THE CHURCH IS NO LONGER POOR. CATHOLIC POPE.

    AND THE CHURCH IS NO LONGER HUMBLE. ST THOMAS ACQINAS TO POPE.

    Caveat - this is a wiki link but it seems spot on.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constan...d_Christianity
    Constantine wasn't even a Christian IIRC. He just went along with it to unite the empires.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    I'm reminded of my philosophy classes now.

    Any of you atheists ever consider Pascal's Wager?

    If you truly believe there's no God, then life, by definition, is nothing more than trivial events and simple pleasures until you die.
    I'd say its the opposite. If there is no afterlife, then life is all the more meaningful and precious because its all we get. One shot, no more than 100 trips around the sun beginning to end. And then all that's left of you is the impact, good or ill you left for those after you.

    In a universe with a heaven, what is life expect another version of the womb? A short, limited experience before eternity. Heaven gives us a place to fix our regrets, settle old grudges, tell people we love them. But if its not there, then we have to use our life for that.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  11. #26
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    I'd say its the opposite. If there is no afterlife, then life is all the more meaningful and precious because its all we get. One shot, no more than 100 trips around the sun beginning to end. And then all that's left of you is the impact, good or ill you left for those after you.
    That's not the opposite of Pascal's Wager. That's precisely what Pascal was trying to say. Most atheists, according to Pascal, praddle on through their one life without ever really accomplishing much at all.

    This is their (your) one shot and then it's all a big nothing so you must, by definition, live an incredibly full life.

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    IIn a universe with a heaven, what is life expect another version of the womb? A short, limited experience before eternity. Heaven gives us a place to fix our regrets, settle old grudges, tell people we love them. But if its not there, then we have to use our life for that.
    For one, I do not believe in a so-called heaven, so no, I don't consider me simply being in another womb nor do I believe that it will be a place of settling regret and grudges.

    The concept of heaven and hell is a religious concept, created in the minds of a finite being. It's an extension of the same vein attempt to explain the unexplainable.

    This is a journey and death is a mere door into the next journey. I don't assume that once I leave this world, I am going to go to a place that has all the answers.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    .

    The concept of heaven and hell is a religious concept, created in the minds of a finite being. It's an extension of the same vein attempt to explain the unexplainable.
    I agree. In my mind hell is the direct result of humans thinking in terms of retributive logic.

    Hell, along with predetermination/predestination, and biblical literalism, are the biggest reasons why I distanced myself from Christianity. Jesus was anything but a biblical literalist. In fact, it's what got him into so much trouble. It's troubling to try and understand how a religion that dons the man's name doesn't follow what he preached. Of the many men and women -who I would consider very intelligent and eminent voices of the faith- that I've spoken with about the Bible, all of them flirt with equivocation with their pick and choose approach to how they interpret the bible.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

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  13. #28
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Here's some sad news that has to do with this thread.

    Rick Warren's son committed suicide. He was on 27 yrs old. He had mental disorders for quite awhile and was seeing the best doctors in the country. He hinted of suicide a decade ago and told his famous father, I know I'm going to heaven so why don't I just kill myself now.

    Suicide is usually equivalent to murder but in this case only God knows if he was truly saved. He had a disease so he might get off. I know I wouldn't want to face God on my judgement day shortly after killing myself.

    This is a tough issue.

    Warren is the famous pastor of the Saddleback Church in California and wrote the famous Purpose Driven Life and Purpose Driven Church books. They sold more copies than just about any book in history and made skillions for Warren. He gave back every cent his church paid him during the last 25 years and tithes 90% of his book receipts while living on 10% but that still comes to about a couple of million pr yr for him.

    He's also a leader in the so-called Emergent or Emergencing Church and leader of the post modern era. He sends millions to third world countries as well as to Aids research and victims.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...ef=mostpopular




  14. #29

    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Like Sir, I too believe in God but no particular religion.

    Too much evidence in nature and, oddly enough, in science for me to think otherwise.

    Organized religion, to me, is the vein attempt by the finite to explain the infinite. By simple definition, we cannot begin to understand or explain the infinite.
    wow... that is an almost PERFECT explanation fo my beliefs as well. Religio? No, pass... but God. I can't seem to wrap my head around a way that the universe and all things could begin to exist without one.




  15. #30

    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirdowski View Post
    Thomas Jefferson said it best, and I'm inclined to agree. "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
    This is a fantastic quote and thank you for sharing.

    First off, I think we need to separate organized religion with the idea of God. I do not believe in prophets, I believe no man has any extra perception of the divine. Religion is rule of law for society in its origin.

    When I was a freshman in college I embroiled myself in spirituality, meditation, God. I actually became delusional, I thought I was connected to the divine. My thoughts were not inherently mine, I thought. internal and external perceptions melded into melody. In this way I found patterns in my walking life, it became mentally unhealthy when I couldn't stop creating patterns of numbers, sequential numbers, I attached emotions to numbers leaving my emotional responses quite irregular during this time period. I would walk alone in the woods and read animals, the movement of water, it all spoke to me because I thought god existed in everything and I thought I had a medium of communication. It was quite a bizarre situation.. (No I was not tripping), this occurred for I'd say 4-5 month period

    Ultimately I think that the idea of God is interesting and it captivates man. Man wants answers and perception and continual change play roles in our development as humans. God is an idea, and one that man will be talking about long after we're dead and the reasons are clear. We have no definite solutions just our perceptions.
    Last edited by conviction; 04-16-2013 at 12:08 AM.




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