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  1. #136
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God



    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    Just going to bump this thread because it was very interesting. Also, what a representation of atheists here! I'm pleasantly surprised. I'm a proud one myself.
    Why are you proud to be an atheist? If your beliefs are true your beliefs are nothing more than happenstance and how the atoms in your brain aligned. It has nothing to do with "thinking" because material brains can't "think." As the atheist Dawkins puts it, you are simply dancing to your DNA. Are you proud your DNA aligned itself in a certain way?




  2. #137
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    You're saying every reaction needs an action to have caused it.

    So, what caused god?

    Oh, ... nothing caused god?

    So, more accurately, every reaction needs an action except for the pet causes you like. (Classic example of special pleading, a logical fallacy.)
    Aristotle figured out a long time ago that there must be an unmoved mover. There must be a first cause, an uncaused something. Otherwise you are left with an infinite regress of cause and effect that gets us to the present. How does one traverse an infinite? Where does one even begin that journey? Logically, there must be an uncaused cause, something that exists eternally.

    We now have excellent scientific evidence the universe, the natural world (time, space, matter, energy, gravity, electromagnetism, the weak nuclear force, the strong nuclear force), began to exist. Everything we call natural began to exist, all at once, at what is called the Big Bang. What could cause nature to exist? Can nature cause its own existence? Can anything cause its own existence?

    Whatever caused our universe to begin to exist must be timeless, spaceless, immaterial, and incredibly powerful. This is based on our current scientific understanding. Science only examines and measures the natural. Thus science's study can only go back to the Big Bang, or actually to a moment just after it since the laws of physics break down if we try and go back to the Big Bang.

    Do with that as you will.




  3. #138
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    Science has already proved itself. Pardon the snark/truth (once again), but if you know of a reliable method of examining and understanding the world in an objective way that is NOT science, please tell me/the board what it is.
    Let me preface with restating what faith is and is not. Faith is not believing something without evidence. If I said I have faith in my wife would you think I believe she existed though I had no evidence of it? Of course not. Faith is trust. When Christians are called to have faith it means to trust in God, not believe blindly.

    Please give me a scientific statement that proves science. In other words, please tell me how I can use science to prove science.

    Science ASSUMES a number of things. You cannot do science without, dare I say it, faith. You must trust that there are laws of logic you can use. You must trust that mathematics is true. And finally, a great area of faith for an atheist doing science is you must trust that your atoms in your brain have aligned themselves in such a way that you have an accurate perception of what is going on inside your brain, your body, and the outside world.




  4. #139
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    I seem to recall that two of the most intelligent scientists in human history, Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein, were both religious.

    Both thought they were attempting to figure out the mind of God.

    Both thought the universe was so splendid, so spectacular that it could only have been the work of something divine.

    Guess they're just "illogical".
    Newton was a Christian. Some of his work included writing about prophecy, mathematically taking what the Bible said in regard to Jesus and his return, for example. He actually came to the conclusion Jesus would return in 2055 or 2056 (Can't recall which). This is buried in one of his many, many notebooks.

    Einstein is different. At one time Einstein was an atheist. When he first developed the Theories of Special and General Relativity his math pointed to an absolute beginning of the universe. He understood the consequences, didn't like it and thus introduced his cosmological constant that removed the beginning. It required a divide by zero, by the way. When Hubble discovered the expanding universe and what it implied Einstein removed the constant and called it his greatest blunder. Since then we have found that a constant was needed (not one that requires a divide by zero, btw) to deal with the rate of the universe's expansion.

    Once the beginning was confirmed (and has been many other ways since) Einstein became something akin to a deist, though he wrote of his respect on occasion in regard to "that Nazarene." Einstein seemed to waggle between many things in regard to God and calling him religious is probably not fair.




  5. #140
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    Sorry, but I respectfully submit that Einstein was not a deist. He was Agnostic atheist like most scientists are, not a strong atheist. He believed in scientific pantheism although that term didn't exist in his life time but that's what he was.

    He believed the universe was eternal, so it could not have been “Created”.

    __________________________________
    I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modelled after our own - a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty.
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    http://www.pantheismtoday.com/videos...st-not-a-deist
    Einstein did NOT believe the universe was eternal post Hubble's findings.


    Einstein with Hubble discussing Hubble's findings.




  6. #141
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Isnt it possible that the first domino just fell?
    So things can happen uncaused, then? Why doesn't a giraffe just happen right in front of me right now?




  7. #142
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Aliens.

    Sent from my DROID X2 using Forum Runner
    LOL, so aliens are uncaused? They are now God? Aliens can only go back so far, as the universe is only so old and the matter needed for life is even less old since it was all created in stars that eventually died. The matter necessary for life didn't exist until about 4.5 - 4.7 billion years ago, oddly right about the time our sun and the earth formed. How "lucky" for us.




  8. #143
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    So all things need a cause except supernatural things.

    Next step: Show the world something supernatural that can prove this statement.
    All things THAT BEGIN TO EXIST need a cause. Again, back to Aristotle and his idea that an unmoved mover, or uncaused cause, is needed.

    This isn't a dodge, whatever caused the universe caused time to exist and thus is outside of time, or eternal (which is different than forever in time).

    You know those stupid fisherman back 2000 years ago even described the God that existed before time began. Wow, who knew time began before 100 or so years ago?




  9. #144

    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Hey Greg.

    Nice to have you back from vacation.
    "A moron, a rapist, and a Pittsburgh Steeler walk into a bar. He sits down and says, “Hi I’m Ben may I have a drink please?”
    ProFootballMock




  10. #145
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Einstein did NOT believe the universe was eternal post Hubble's findings.


    Einstein with Hubble discussing Hubble's findings.

    Link please or is that just an opinion.




  11. #146
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    So things can happen uncaused, then? Why doesn't a giraffe just happen right in front of me right now?
    Because you're at Mt. Arrogance at the Windbag Estates.

    Do they have giraffes there?
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  12. #147
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    LOL, so aliens are uncaused? They are now God? Aliens can only go back so far, as the universe is only so old and the matter needed for life is even less old since it was all created in stars that eventually died. The matter necessary for life didn't exist until about 4.5 - 4.7 billion years ago, oddly right about the time our sun and the earth formed. How "lucky" for us.
    Did you forget what sarcasm was like while you've been away?

    Here, how's this:

    Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer.

    -Arnold Schwarzenegger



    Check out Fatherhood Rules - a blog site dedicated to sports, food, music, movies, and politics.
    http://fatherhoodrules.com




  13. #148
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    Link please or is that just an opinion.
    Can I link a book somehow? It is not an opinion, Einstein became a deist based on the universe beginning to exist. He denied up until Hubble's discovery. When Hubble discovered the expanding universe that, when run backwards, showed a beginning, Einstein visited him to discuss his findings (see the picture, Hubble is the guy with the pipe).




  14. #149
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Did you forget what sarcasm was like while you've been away?

    Here, how's this:

    Sorry, I was going through the thread quickly and thus lost some of the nuance and ended up discussing things brought up already though I hadn't reached that point in the thread. So I got two errors.




  15. #150
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by darb72 View Post
    Hey Greg.

    Nice to have you back from vacation.
    Nice to be back.




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