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  1. #31
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    Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out



    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    This is kind of what I am saying. People who have this prejudice aren't going to change their mind. People who aren't prejudice don't need their mind changed.

    IMO I don't think it will change anyone's mind. Just my opinion though, I've been wrong before.
    That's not really what I said. I basically categorized two types of prejudiced individuals:

    - people who are committed to their prejudices
    - people who are prejudice only because they haven't taken the time to examine the value of such prejudice and are just doing what they are used to seeing others do.

    People in the second group can change their minds, and when presented with enough evidence or sufficiently striking evidence that the world around them is changing, they will likely change as well. NFL players coming out and the resultant media attention is likely to hasten this process.




  2. #32
    iggyman555 Guest

    Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    Isn't it a safe bet at this point that Ayanbadejo is gay? Not that there is anything wrong with that...
    u think his marriage is fake? i know a guy whos been together with a girl for 5 years even proposed and then one day came out




  3. #33
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    Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Cactus View Post
    That's not really what I said. I basically categorized two types of prejudiced individuals:

    - people who are committed to their prejudices
    - people who are prejudice only because they haven't taken the time to examine the value of such prejudice and are just doing what they are used to seeing others do.

    People in the second group can change their minds, and when presented with enough evidence or sufficiently striking evidence that the world around them is changing, they will likely change as well. NFL players coming out and the resultant media attention is likely to hasten this process.
    That assume quite a lot. First that there are only 2 types of people or 3 mayb4 4.

    Group 1: Prejudice no matter what, can't have their mind changed
    Group 2: Prejudice can have their mind changed, but how do you reach them
    Group 3: Not prejudice don't need to reach them
    Group 4: Doesn't care either way.

    Group 2 can and may change their mind. But saying a "coming out party" is they way to do it, assumes that everyone in the second group will react the same to an event like this. My opinion is that the you would get just as many people in the second group and likely more, who will have a negative reaction to it.

    You can't force societal changes on people they happen overtime. If you take the reigns on a horse and lead him to water you're much more likely to get him to drink. If you get behind it and push, it may not move, if it does you have no control over which way it goes.

    I personally don't care if every guy playing in the NFL and every cheerleader on the sideline was gay. All I am saying, is I don't think this is the way to go about trying to get people to accept it. My opinion is that it doesn't need acceptance. Why, because if there is nothing wrong with it than live your life like there is nothing wrong with it, people will accept it over time.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  4. #34

    Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    That assume quite a lot. First that there are only 2 types of people or 3 mayb4 4.

    Group 1: Prejudice no matter what, can't have their mind changed
    Group 2: Prejudice can have their mind changed, but how do you reach them
    Group 3: Not prejudice don't need to reach them
    Group 4: Doesn't care either way.

    Group 2 can and may change their mind. But saying a "coming out party" is they way to do it, assumes that everyone in the second group will react the same to an event like this. My opinion is that the you would get just as many people in the second group and likely more, who will have a negative reaction to it.

    You can't force societal changes on people they happen overtime. If you take the reigns on a horse and lead him to water you're much more likely to get him to drink. If you get behind it and push, it may not move, if it does you have no control over which way it goes.

    I personally don't care if every guy playing in the NFL and every cheerleader on the sideline was gay. All I am saying, is I don't think this is the way to go about trying to get people to accept it. My opinion is that it doesn't need acceptance. Why, because if there is nothing wrong with it than live your life like there is nothing wrong with it, people will accept it over time.
    NCRaven, in a general sense I agree with a live and let live stance. There's no reason for people to broadcast their sexuality in a public manner - Kind of "rub peoples faces in it" type of thing.

    The difference in this situation gay's have been repressed for a long time. I think in this situation it absolutely does require a big "Splash" type announcement. Once it happens, then I'd be much more supportive of your line of reasoning. But I think the splash is required to force initial acceptance. Not that I'm saying "everyone has to agree with being gay", just acceptance of "He's gay, doesn't change anything about his job".




  5. #35
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    Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

    Quote Originally Posted by StaticRaven View Post
    NCRaven, in a general sense I agree with a live and let live stance. There's no reason for people to broadcast their sexuality in a public manner - Kind of "rub peoples faces in it" type of thing.

    The difference in this situation gay's have been repressed for a long time. I think in this situation it absolutely does require a big "Splash" type announcement. Once it happens, then I'd be much more supportive of your line of reasoning. But I think the splash is required to force initial acceptance. Not that I'm saying "everyone has to agree with being gay", just acceptance of "He's gay, doesn't change anything about his job".
    They have been for a long time. But it is changing. Just the other week, I had out of my 300 (or so) friends on facebook, probably at least half changed their profile pic to an equal sign in support of gay marriage. Think that would have happened 25 years ago? Some states are voting to legalize gay marriage, some aren't but when that vote fails it doesn't fail by the margin it would have years ago.

    Seriously, if you want change to happen don't force it on people. If I push you, you will in all likelihood push me back, right? That's all I am saying.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  6. #36
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    Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    That assume quite a lot.
    I categorized 2 groups to simplify the discussion. That's not equivalent to assuming something to make a point. Really, the only thing my point assumes is that there are people who are prejudice but capable of changing their prejudices. You said...

    if anyone thinks that is going to change anyone's mind who currently is not very accepting of homosexuality, they're not being realistic.
    I was merely pointing at that this isn't true.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Group 2 can and may change their mind. But saying a "coming out party" is they way to do it, assumes that everyone in the second group will react the same to an event like this. My opinion is that the you would get just as many people in the second group and likely more, who will have a negative reaction to it.
    I'm not assuming all prejudice people who are capable of change will react the same way to a certain stimulus. I'm just saying that a more extreme stimulus is likely to change more of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    You can't force societal changes on people they happen overtime.
    Agreed, but I believe you can effect the rate of change.


    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    My opinion is that it doesn't need acceptance. Why, because if there is nothing wrong with it than live your life like there is nothing wrong with it, people will accept it over time.
    People crave acceptance. It's difficult for people to live openly when others are prejudice against their lifestyle.

    I get your point, but I just disagree. I think a more drastic showing of people coming out and being supported by others will change more minds more quickly. As you noted above, we're reaching a tipping point with this as a nation. People are taking notice and joining in. If anything that validates what I've said here. People who were asleep in their prejudices or ignorant of the prejudices of other are now being jolted into action, causing change to happen more rapidly.




  7. #37
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    Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

    Quote Originally Posted by iggyman555 View Post
    u think his marriage is fake? i know a guy whos been together with a girl for 5 years even proposed and then one day came out
    It's certainly possible, but going off of him being a huge advocate for GLB rights and meaning that there's a good chance he's gay, that's like saying I'm a huge advocate for Muslim tolerance, so I must be a Muslim.

    I am a HUGE advocate for GLB rights as well, and I can say with 100% honesty, I am a white, straight, American male with a wife, 2 kids, and no interest in men sexually. If Brendon was truly gay, I would think he would be the first one to step out and make it known, but given his love for his kids and wife, I'd tend to believe it's genuine that he's straight or bisexual.
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  8. #38
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    Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Cactus View Post
    I'm not assuming all prejudice people who are capable of change will react the same way to a certain stimulus. I'm just saying that a more extreme stimulus is likely to change more of them.
    Maybe, maybe not. For the past 15 years, I have been in the business of persuading people and I can say from my experience (not that it's the final say) that is not what would be the likely outcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Cactus View Post
    Agreed, but I believe you can effect the rate of change.
    Absolutely you can. But do you do that by pushing something on people or pulling them to it?



    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Cactus View Post
    I get your point, but I just disagree. I think a more drastic showing of people coming out and being supported by others will change more minds more quickly. As you noted above, we're reaching a tipping point with this as a nation. People are taking notice and joining in. If anything that validates what I've said here. People who were asleep in their prejudices or ignorant of the prejudices of other are now being jolted into action, causing change to happen more rapidly.
    I agree with you in part. I think the people who are ignorant of the prejudices of other people may be woken up about other people's prejudice, so it may help them join in. But again, the people who are prejudice are the ones you need to reach. And that is why I am saying this is not the way to reach them, that's really all I am talking about.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  9. #39
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    Here's the thing. If a gay player simply acts the same as any straight player (ie Appears in public with his spouse or partner) they are by definition "coming out." There's nothing splashy or in your face about it except in the fact that they're defying an established norm.

    Was Harbaugh coming out as straight when he kissed his wife after hoisting the Lombardi? No. But a gay man would have been.

    Coming out is nothing more than acting the same way straight people get to.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  10. #40
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    Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    Here's the thing. If a gay player simply acts the same as any straight player (ie Appears in public with his spouse or partner) they are by definition "coming out." There's nothing splashy or in your face about it except in the fact that they're defying an established norm.

    Was Harbaugh coming out as straight when he kissed his wife after hoisting the Lombardi? No. But a gay man would have been.

    Coming out is nothing more than acting the same way straight people get to.
    EEEEeeeeexactly!

    And straight people don't have press conferences to announce they're straight...
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    EEEEeeeeexactly!

    And straight people don't have press conferences to announce they're straight...
    You missed my point. Straight people don't HAVE to do anything like that because we live in a heteronormative society. These press conferences and choreographed coming outs are a response to our expectation as a society that people are straight. Or did I miss the thread calling it gross and rubbing it in your face when Harbs kissed his wife?
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  12. #42
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    Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    You missed my point. Straight people don't HAVE to do anything like that because we live in a heteronormative society. These press conferences and choreographed coming outs are a response to our expectation as a society that people are straight. Or did I miss the thread calling it gross and rubbing it in your face when Harbs kissed his wife?
    I guess I missed the part where I said that too.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    I guess I missed the part where I said that too.
    I didn't say you did. But I am paraphrasing people in this very thread who did.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  14. #44
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    Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    I didn't say you did. But I am paraphrasing people in this very thread who did.
    You said "your face" . My bad, I can be too literal some times.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  15. #45
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    Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

    Another facet to this, and related to what spambot was saying, is that by coming out in this way the players agree controlling the story which is important in this matter. Just going out and 'being gay' would result in tabloid sensationalist reporting if such a story, pictures and eyewitness accounts and all. This way the people in question get to set the stage themselves and have the opportunity to answer questions and really get across the point that it's nothing to be ashamed of. It sets the tone. Especially when you know the media would treat it in a certain way.

    Someone doesn't come out as gay to their parents by bringing a man home, because it wouldn't give them the opportunity to take it in the news and ask what they need to ask me.




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