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  1. #91

    Re: Ozzie isn't rebuilding this team, he's upgrading the defense.



    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    I don't think Breer was saying that any given move - at least those acquired - was by design, but the overall approach - improve the DL, move Ngata back to NT, not overpaying to retain anyone, use their draft picks to improve the depth and youth of the team - was certainly by design.
    I agree with that, but then that is sort of obvious. Our defense wasn't great, so of course we want to strengthen it. Canty and Spears were picks that fit that bill.

    I am just saying that there sometimes is a tendency to claim or believe that Ozzie is sitting back saying "muahahahaha, things are falling right into place just like I planned (on March 1st)," when in reality it is more that Ozzie is scrambling repeatedly as his most-recent plan gets foiled by unpredicted circumstances or changed by other people's decisions.

    Being able to adjust well on the fly to these circumstances is obviously a large part of being a great GM, and Ozzie is a great GM. I just think there are times when Ozzie gets praise for foreknowledge that never existed (could never possibly exist) and for the results of decisions that were not his to make (whether Boldin or Ellerbe , etc, accept their offers). Not knocking Ozzie at all, just semi-knocking some of the effusive praise.




  2. #92
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    Re: Ozzie isn't rebuilding this team, he's upgrading the defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    Do you think Ozzie's brain is going to give out like Ed's neck or Boldin's speed? Physical talent is fleeting, mental acuity is not. The fact that you'd try to correlate the two shows me that you're more interested in scoring zingers on people on a message board than actually exchanging ideas.
    I sure hope not lol, but are you saying that age only plays a role in physicality and not in brain function? If so I uh, don't know what else to say to that. Mental acuity can be one of the first things to go and in many cases is! I obviously don't think that will happen to Ozzie or anybody else in the FO and that's not the point I was making which I think you full well know. The point is that talent is talent, whether or not it's physical or mental. The greatest physical specimen can make a mistake lifting a bell and hurt him/herself horribly and the greatest mind can make a mistake in an otherwise masterful dissertation. Why is talent in the FO judged differently from talent on the field? They go hand and hand and both can make mistakes. Also, the fact that a guy I have watched for years do nothing BUT try and score zingers on posters on this message board trying to chide me for it is quite hilarious. Would you like to share some popcorn with me?




  3. #93

    Re: Ozzie isn't rebuilding this team, he's upgrading the defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    I agree with that, but then that is sort of obvious. Our defense wasn't great, so of course we want to strengthen it. Canty and Spears were picks that fit that bill.

    I am just saying that there sometimes is a tendency to claim or believe that Ozzie is sitting back saying "muahahahaha, things are falling right into place just like I planned (on March 1st)," when in reality it is more that Ozzie is scrambling repeatedly as his most-recent plan gets foiled by unpredicted circumstances or changed by other people's decisions.

    Being able to adjust well on the fly to these circumstances is obviously a large part of being a great GM, and Ozzie is a great GM. I just think there are times when Ozzie gets praise for foreknowledge that never existed (could never possibly exist) and for the results of decisions that were not his to make (whether Boldin or Ellerbe , etc, accept their offers). Not knocking Ozzie at all, just semi-knocking some of the effusive praise.
    Don't disagree with that at all. Then again, I wasn't really - nor was Breer, IMO - arguing that everything was proceeding exactly like Ozzie planned.

    Yes, every team goes about trying to improve their team, but few have been able to do it as successfully as Ozzie has over the years.

    Perhaps, it's more about a philosophy, as opposed to a plan. They had a plan to improve the D, but stuck to their philosophy to strike when opportune, not panicking (when 1/2 of their fan base was) and not overreach or overpay.

    Or, at least, that's how I read that series of tweets from Breer.
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

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  4. #94

    Re: Ozzie isn't rebuilding this team, he's upgrading the defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    Don't disagree with that at all. Then again, I wasn't really - nor was Breer, IMO - arguing that everything was proceeding exactly like Ozzie planned.

    Yes, every team goes about trying to improve their team, but few have been able to do it as successfully as Ozzie has over the years.

    Perhaps, it's more about a philosophy, as opposed to a plan. They had a plan to improve the D, but stuck to their philosophy to strike when opportune, not panicking (when 1/2 of their fan base was) and not overreach or overpay.

    Or, at least, that's how I read that series of tweets from Breer.
    I guess my post was partially addressing common posts around here. But also I think the word "overhaul" is not the same as the word "upgrade." So the first tweet I think is the one I am addressing. Ray Lewis retiring, Kruger leaving, and Ellerbe leaving I think were not any kind of plan. They were either givens or decisions by others (Ellerbe/Miami). Could maybe argue the same for Reed, but not as easily. So if Ellerbe and Reed stays, we don't sign Dumervil (because of Ellerbe and Reed's contracts), have we overhauled? Because that was one feasible result of our moves from the beginning.

    Anyway, obviously I was reading more into it than most.

    Also, btw, do you think it is a given, based on our moves, that Ngata is moving to NT? I do, but reading some other posts/threads around here, it looks like others don't necessarily agree. I am wondering if you heard anything specific regarding the situation or are just assuming/guessing (like I am)?




  5. #95

    Re: Ozzie isn't rebuilding this team, he's upgrading the defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    Albert Breer‏@AlbertBreer
    Some interesting things I gleaned about Dumervil and the Ravens' offseason plan in BAL today. First: Defensive overhaul is by design.

    Albert Breer‏@AlbertBreer
    The Ravens won the SB, but were 20th in total D. They felt they needed to upgrade. They feel like they've set themselves up to do it.

    Albert Breer‏@AlbertBreer
    Dumervil's $26M in base pay is 65% of what Kruger got. Ravens got Dumervil, Canty, Spears for price of Kruger. And they have 12 draft picks.

    Albert Breer‏@AlbertBreer
    As it sets up now, Ravens stand to be better on the LOS, at CB. They need help at S, ILB. Ex-Raider Michael Huff visits this week.

    Albert Breer‏@AlbertBreer
    ... And then, you have the 12 draft picks and a class that's strong up the middle on D.

    Albert Breer‏@AlbertBreer
    No. But decision to let the market settle was absolutely strategic. RT @dvlos56 @AlbertBreer they designed #WTFax???

    Albert Breer‏@AlbertBreer
    One other thing, also sounds like we'll see Suggs, Dumervil and Upshaw together some. Maybe Suggs and Dumervil on edges, Upshaw as a Joker.
    The tweet #2 absolutely blows my mind and the tweet about letting the market settle is spot on. We've seen this before.




  6. #96

    Re: Ozzie isn't rebuilding this team, he's upgrading the defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    The only move that was purely by design, imo, was letting Pollard go. Kruger was always going to be too expensive whether we were going to try to keep everyone (not overhaul) or not. Ellerbe, on the other hand, we attempted to keep. So if Ellerbe settles for $4.5-$5M per year or whatever our offer was, then what? We still are "overhauling the defense by design" but doing it with Ellerbe, not Dumervil, and maybe Harrison or whoever is the next cheapest of the older FA pass rushers. Same with Reed to some extent, we made an offer, though I will admit that our offer to Reed was likely for appearance sake and had little chance of success, so maybe I count him in with Pollard as "by design."

    Same goes with Boldin's paycut offer. He accepts it and everything changes. And we did offer it (by some 'other' design).
    What about Canty and Spears? I would say they were brought in by design. I would argue that letting Kruger and Cary walk was by design as well. There's was never any effort to re-sign those guys. They kind of already had an idea of what they wanted to do when those two left.
    There's an obvious push to retool, upgrade, overhaul the defense. Call it what you want but they had every intention to change the personnel.




  7. #97

    Re: Ozzie isn't rebuilding this team, he's upgrading the defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by pslholder96 View Post
    What about Canty and Spears? I would say they were brought in by design. I would argue that letting Kruger and Cary walk was by design as well. There's was never any effort to re-sign those guys. They kind of already had an idea of what they wanted to do when those two left.
    There's an obvious push to retool, upgrade, overhaul the defense. Call it what you want but they had every intention to change the personnel.
    Signing Spears and Canty is adding not overhauling. They are cheap and are at positions where we lost no one (like adding Corey Graham last year). I think these signings were great. Cary and Kruger were always going to leave. The latter because he was going to be too expensive, the former because we didn't need him (at even very reasonable or cheap prices). Those would have been like letting JJ and Redding go, which to me isn't part of an "overhaul."

    I suppose we are just arguing about what we think the word "overhaul" means, but to me it means getting rid of a lot of things on purpose that one wouldn't get rid of if they were not overhauling, and replacing them with something better/different. Only Pollard and maybe Reed (if we lowballed him on purpose), I think fall into that category. Ellerbe we wanted, and not really only for cheap, but for reasonable.

    As with all these moves/decisions there have been forks in the road along the way, and in many cases which fork we went down was determined by others.

    Knowing our cap situation, tell me what our roster looks like right now, in your opinion, if Boldin accepts the paycut and counts $5.5M towards our cap instead of $1.5M (dead money) right now. Now add Ellerbe at $4.5M per year. Who is here? Would you still consider it an 'overhaul?' That is what I am getting at.




  8. #98
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    Re: Ozzie isn't rebuilding this team, he's upgrading the defense.

    Ozzzie is typically in the Good to Very Good range. Right now, we have to give him an Incomplete (with a B to B+ his probable final grade).

    He will re-sign McK or find an approximaely equal FA, then take care of LB and S in the draft. We WILL be competitive next year.




  9. #99
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    Re: Ozzie isn't rebuilding this team, he's upgrading the defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    Albert Breer‏@AlbertBreer
    One other thing, also sounds like we'll see Suggs, Dumervil and Upshaw together some. Maybe Suggs and Dumervil on edges, Upshaw as a Joker.
    That could mean we are going into more of a 4 man front like we did back in 2011 which worked really well. They dropped Jarret Johnson back into zone quite a bit, but mostly had him blitzing or setting the edge as a strong side LB. Maybe that's what they plan on doing with Upshaw. They had Redding lined up at LDE, maybe they move Suggs there and play Doom at the RDE spot either standing up or in a 2 point stance, then you can have Ngata and Canty in the middle. Its all about getting your best players on the field.




  10. #100

    Re: Ozzie isn't rebuilding this team, he's upgrading the defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Also, btw, do you think it is a given, based on our moves, that Ngata is moving to NT? I do, but reading some other posts/threads around here, it looks like others don't necessarily agree. I am wondering if you heard anything specific regarding the situation or are just assuming/guessing (like I am)?
    Yes, I do. They'll obviously use multiple fronts, so he could be at DE at times and they may play more of a 4-man front at times as well, so he'd be more in the traditional DT spot, but I do think that he's going to see more time - much more time - at NT.

    I think they've essentially given up on Cody. Not that he won't make the team, but IMO they've given up on relying on him. At this point, whatever they get from him, I think they'll consider a bonus. He's now considered to be "depth".
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

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  11. #101
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    Re: Ozzie isn't rebuilding this team, he's upgrading the defense.

    We basically gave our Ellerbe $$ to Dumervil.

    Obviously ILB was a position of need more. But you can't have enough pass rush they say.

    I am confident we will get one of the top 5 ILBs or S's in the draft. Plus it is a deep draft for defense.

    Plus "next man up" for the guys we do have, and maybe a late summer cut veteran for depth at ILB if need be.




  12. #102
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    Re: Ozzie isn't rebuilding this team, he's upgrading the defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    I agree with that, but then that is sort of obvious. Our defense wasn't great, so of course we want to strengthen it. Canty and Spears were picks that fit that bill.

    I am just saying that there sometimes is a tendency to claim or believe that Ozzie is sitting back saying "muahahahaha, things are falling right into place just like I planned (on March 1st)," when in reality it is more that Ozzie is scrambling repeatedly as his most-recent plan gets foiled by unpredicted circumstances or changed by other people's decisions.

    Being able to adjust well on the fly to these circumstances is obviously a large part of being a great GM, and Ozzie is a great GM. I just think there are times when Ozzie gets praise for foreknowledge that never existed (could never possibly exist) and for the results of decisions that were not his to make (whether Boldin or Ellerbe , etc, accept their offers). Not knocking Ozzie at all, just semi-knocking some of the effusive praise.
    I wouldn't characterize it as adjusting on the fly. Adjusting on the fly is what you do when your QB is injured for the season in week 2. You don't have a backup plan for that. The Ravens don't get caught by surprise very often. There are events they cannot control, but that doesn't mean they aren't anticipating them.

    The Ravens in general have a plan A, a plan B, a plan C, and a plan Z. Nothing that has happened has surprised them. While they didn't know that Miami was going to back up the Brinks truck for Ellerbe, they knew that it was a possibility. And they knew what their various options were going to be if that happened.

    People are characterizing this Dumervil signing as a freak stroke of luck. But the fact is that Oz was well aware that Dumervil was in a situation like Boldin. There was no way he was going to play for Denver under his cap number. Therefore, until they executed a new contract, Dumervil was in play. It could very well have gone down like Boldin did, where wouldn't renegotiate and they were forced to trade or release him. The way it actually went down was of course very unusual, but the bottom line is the contract is not in place until it's in place, and Oz knew exactly what he was ready to offer Dumervil if he had the chance to do it.

    And to me, the beauty of watching this front office in action is that after the dust settles, when you look back on it, you can see what the plan was. It all makes sense. It has been a contrast to watching the O's operate over the past decade, where you look back on what they did and still can't make any sense of it.
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  13. #103
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    Re: Ozzie isn't rebuilding this team, he's upgrading the defense.

    Ozzie Newsome has spoke, in the past, about monitoring the player and cap situations of other teams. He and his staff do so, well in advance of Free Agency. He spoke about this when the team acquired Lee Evans. That was a situation they monitored for months.

    They had to be aware that Peyton Manning's cap figure would cause some damage to Denver and that they would have to take steps to prepare for that, especially if they wanted to win within the next year or two. So, what do they do? In a market where there are at least two pass rushing veteran DEs available, they asked Dumervil to take a pay cut, feeling that they could cut him next year and still get production from his spot. They were fully prepared to release him this year.

    I don't think this was as much as surprise to Ozzie as some may believe.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  14. #104
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    Re: Ozzie isn't rebuilding this team, he's upgrading the defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotInHere View Post
    People are characterizing this Dumervil signing as a freak stroke of luck. But the fact is that Oz was well aware that Dumervil was in a situation like Boldin. There was no way he was going to play for Denver under his cap number. Therefore, until they executed a new contract, Dumervil was in play. It could very well have gone down like Boldin did, where wouldn't renegotiate and they were forced to trade or release him.
    We've seen the likes of Harrison, Dumervil, etc. all be released without their team gaining anything.

    Ozzie got us a 6th rd pick for Q, even though people knew Q could be released. Obviously you have to have a trade partner, but as far as I can tell Ozzie is the only GM to get a pick out of a player everyone knew was going to be cut. Everyone just cut them and got nothing.




  15. #105

    Re: Ozzie isn't rebuilding this team, he's upgrading the defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotInHere View Post
    I wouldn't characterize it as adjusting on the fly. Adjusting on the fly is what you do when your QB is injured for the season in week 2. You don't have a backup plan for that. The Ravens don't get caught by surprise very often. There are events they cannot control, but that doesn't mean they aren't anticipating them.

    The Ravens in general have a plan A, a plan B, a plan C, and a plan Z. Nothing that has happened has surprised them. While they didn't know that Miami was going to back up the Brinks truck for Ellerbe, they knew that it was a possibility. And they knew what their various options were going to be if that happened.

    People are characterizing this Dumervil signing as a freak stroke of luck. But the fact is that Oz was well aware that Dumervil was in a situation like Boldin. There was no way he was going to play for Denver under his cap number. Therefore, until they executed a new contract, Dumervil was in play. It could very well have gone down like Boldin did, where wouldn't renegotiate and they were forced to trade or release him. The way it actually went down was of course very unusual, but the bottom line is the contract is not in place until it's in place, and Oz knew exactly what he was ready to offer Dumervil if he had the chance to do it.

    And to me, the beauty of watching this front office in action is that after the dust settles, when you look back on it, you can see what the plan was. It all makes sense. It has been a contrast to watching the O's operate over the past decade, where you look back on what they did and still can't make any sense of it.
    Don't really disagree with any of this but if Boldin accepts our offer and Ellerbe signs here for reasonable amount, we likely don't get Dumervil at all. Maybe even if one of those two things happen, we don't get him.

    My issue was with the insinuation that we went into the offseason looking to "overhaul" our defense. I personally think 'overhaul' has a different and larger meaning than 'upgrade.' It implies purposeful tearing down and rebuilding.

    I think of the 6 guys on defense who left, 3 were going no matter what our strategy was (overhaul or stand pat and upgrade in small places), Kruger, Cary, Ray. And one of the 6 we wanted to stay (not a purposeful tearing down), Ellerbe. Pollard we overhauled and fits the criteria. Ed Reed is an arguable case between being an Ellerbe or a Pollard. We at least pretended to want him back, but that may have been all we did (because we wanted to overhaul him).

    In short, I am not so sure you can sit back and see what the plan was. At least if you are talking about the preferred plan. If we hadn't offered Boldin a chance to stay, or Ellerbe a fair contract, or Reed a contract, then one could easily argue that we intended for this exact kind of end result. But we did, so we had other end results in mind at some point, some of which signficantly change the theme of the plan, imo.




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