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  1. #121
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?



    Quote Originally Posted by moose10101 View Post
    So has the average for top defensive players gone down? What is your definition of "top defensive player"? Based on what you've written, it seems to be "a guy who got a big contract five years ago", and it should be obvious that your definition is totally off base.

    In a world where Kruger signs for $8 million/year, Ellerbe signs for $7 million/year, Cary Williams signs for $5.7 million/year, and Clay Matthews is on the verge of signing for $13 (!!!) million/year, you're going to have to prove that defensive player salaries are dropping more than any other non-QB position.
    Antitrust cases typically can take years to develop.

    I've previously said this pattern will have to show longer than just one season.

    We are in the beginning of a new 10 year CBA, so things could still be settling out.

    That doesn't mean weird things can't still be going on. Yes these things are hard to prove. But not impossible.

    If you guys don't want to buy in until there is more concrete evidence, fine. If you just want to poke fun at the shitty NFL union and say "of course agents want higher contracts" so be it. But the industry is on notice regardless of what you think. The NFLPA wouldn't be issuing daily salary cap updates (even if it is just a tactical ploy).

    I made this thread because I saw things that looked weird. And it seems I am not the only one, despite all of the blow back I've taken here from people that don't work in football and have no experience with the issues surrounding this topic.




  2. #122

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    So I would appreciate a little less shit from people that haven't done those things and aren't privy to such discussions.

    I created this thread because I thought weird things were happening in free agency. My suspicion is not alone.

    You can believe it or not, but the fact is other people actually in the industry and not on a message board are worried.
    And I attended a speech and Q&A by Jimmy Hoffa. That doesn't make me a labor expert.

    You might have had an extra ounce or two of credibility if you hadn't started this thread to speculate that some Seahawks players were colluding by taking less than market value.
    I've upped my standards. Up yours.




  3. #123

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    If you guys don't want to buy in until there is more concrete evidence, fine.
    I'll go with that, thanks.
    I've upped my standards. Up yours.




  4. #124
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by moose10101 View Post
    Are you practicing for Moot Court?
    This is my thinking.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  5. #125
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    If owners conspire together to fix wages there is an issue. You seem to only be looking at it from a salary cap perspective, which is not where the legal focus fully resides.
    How do you differentiate market value from wage fixing? Since there is a cap that limits how much a team can spend conditions change from year to year based on where that cap is and how much teams have left to spend towards the cap. That's going to influence the market value of players. There are other factors as well like the players age, production and injury history that are constantly in flux.

    Bernard Pollard got a 3 year deal last year for good money. He was released and this year he agreed to a 1 year deal for a fraction of the money. Can Pollard point to last years contract and say something is fishy because he received so much less this season? He was injured last year which hurt his production. He might of had some personality issues that the team didn't like. He plays a style of football that is leading to fines and that the NFL is trying rule out of existence.

    What can be pointed to that will prove that Pollard's contract was the result of teams colluding to keep his contract down when there are so many other factors that influence market value out there? That's just 1 example. If a draft pick that the media proclaims to be a 1st round pick falls to the 2nd round is it collusion because most teams use the same scouting service and therefore form the same opinion of the player? The later a player is picked the lower his contract value. Or, is it simply market value? Running backs used to be highly represented in the top 10 picks and now they are barely drafted in the 1st round. The market had changed. How can you distinguish market value from collusion?
    He Who Dares.....Wins




  6. #126
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by moose10101 View Post
    And I attended a speech and Q&A by Jimmy Hoffa. That doesn't make me a labor expert.
    Yeah because that is totally the same as being immersed in the topic for 6+ months. And I never said I was an expert.

    Quote Originally Posted by moose10101 View Post
    You might have had an extra ounce or two of credibility if you hadn't started this thread to speculate that some Seahawks players were colluding by taking less than market value.
    It was the beginning of the free agency period. All of these other lowball deals had yet to be finalized.

    Yet still the central topic of collusion remains valid, as evidenced by the concern in the industry.

    And I've contributed waaaaaaaaaaaay more support to the validity of my side than you have to yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by moose10101 View Post
    I'll go with that, thanks.
    Please do. In the mean time, plenty of other threads...




  7. #127
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    This is my thinking.
    Then your thinking is wrong. Again, plenty of other threads...




  8. #128
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    My wife is a labor and employment attorney and I asked her to take a look at the thread. She deals with unions / labor matters daily.

    Her take is Dee is simply doing something to show the membership he's relevant and earning his keep. He's a man who knows the law, knows it takes a ton of proof to even get the NLRB to take notice, let alone to take a collusion claim to court, and that this is nothing but conjecture and speculation on the part of the NFLPA.

    She also adds there's a HUGE difference in book law you learn as a 3Y and what is actually practiced in the L&E world.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  9. #129
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Then your thinking is wrong. Again, plenty of other threads...
    That's a good thing, so far you've not been doing a good job of arguing your case.

    I might suggest a course in economics to better understand supply and demand and how that is effecting free agency contracts.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  10. #130
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    My wife is a labor and employment attorney and I asked her to take a look at the thread. She deals with unions / labor matters daily.

    Her take is Dee is simply doing something to show the membership he's relevant and earning his keep. He's a man who knows the law, knows it takes a ton of proof to even get the NLRB to take notice, let alone to take a collusion claim to court, and that this is nothing but conjecture and speculation on the part of the NFLPA.

    She also adds there's a HUGE difference in book law you learn as a 3Y and what is actually practiced in the L&E world.
    I agree with all of that.

    But yet still agents in the industry are of the opinion that something weird is going on. I've heard it directly out of their mouths.

    We will just have to wait and see.

    I am just a little tired of people here busting on me like I concocted some crazy theory and don't have a clue what I am talking about.




  11. #131
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    That's a good thing, so far you've not been doing a good job of arguing your case.
    ZING! Wow. That hurt. Good one.

    What exactly have you contributed to this topic again?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    I might suggest a course in economics to better understand supply and demand and how that is effecting free agency contracts.
    I might suggest you study the history of sports leagues and antitrust. it is pretty long so you should get started ASAP so you can catch up and comprehend the issues.




  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Yet still the central topic of collusion remains valid, as evidenced by the concern in the industry.
    Concern =/= Evidence

    Correlation =/= Causation
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  13. #133
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Who said they were crooked money hungry scumbags?



    Yes, when they see guys who were previously in their prime and well under 30 getting big dollars who are now past their prime and well over 30 not getting big dollars, something must be up, like collusion!

    I know if I was an agent and my client was asking me why he can't get the big dollars like X, I would be happy to tell him, "collusion", instead of, you're old, you're past your prime, your skills are diminished and you got burnt every other play last year.



    That's not really not comparable, but yes, I would want to know why. It would likely be that someone else has a better product or at least a better value.

    i'm sure that's every agents excuse.




  14. #134
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Concern =/= Evidence

    Correlation =/= Causation
    This stuff now is the tip of the iceberg. It is in the early early stages.

    Maybe it turns out to be nothing. Maybe it turns out to be something.

    I started this thread almost a month ago in early free agency and the core issue of my suspicions is gradually being validated by people in the industry.

    Yet I continue to catch heat daily as if I was way off base in my original thoughts.

    Aaron Wilson has inside sources. He posts reliable news. Weeks ago he posted about agents and the "c" word. I don't see anyone busting his balls. Now just yesterday we see clear action by the NFLPA. And yet people dismiss it, instead of viewing it as another piece of support of the original premise of the thread. Another piece of the puzzle.

    It reminds me of when that random dude started a thread about Suggs blowing out his Achilles way before any media outlet and everyone called BS. Then BAM!...it was true. Anyone else remember that thread here? The guy was ridiculed. Until it was shown he was right.
    Last edited by bt12483; 04-04-2013 at 11:01 AM.




  15. #135
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    ZING! Wow. That hurt. Good one.
    Zing? No joke there, just my observation after reading this thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    What exactly have you contributed to this topic again?
    Bout as much as you have, nothing really.

    Just bored on slow work day, and getting a rise out of watching you trying to defend the indefensible.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    I might suggest you study the history of sports leagues and antitrust. it is pretty long so you should get started ASAP so you can catch up and comprehend the issues.
    Why would I spend my time doing that, just because agents have no other reason than to tell their d-lineman clients, you play the wrong side of the ball for a big contract?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




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