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  1. #166

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?



    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Do you know who punished WASH and DAL?

    Do you know why they were punished?

    They were punished because they didn't collude.


    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...cap-sanctions/
    I am aware of the issue. I was one of the few posters that defended those two teams' positions and stated that the unwritten "agreement" that they apparently 'violated' was indeed collusion. Check the forum archives.

    But this has nothing to do with my point on the current issue, which was:

    a) these two teams are currently out of the FA market and they are notoriously known as upward drivers to salaries and contracts, and

    b) the NFLPA signed on to the penalties, leaving the Cowboys and Redskins without any real recourse in terms of defending themselves (everyone but them were on the other side).




  2. #167
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Huff was All Pro 2010. As was John Abraham (currently unsigned).

    Nothing I say will convince you anyway.
    You seem to ignore, younger free agents like Kruger and ellerbe got paid above what they should, so to counter the overpayment, obviously others are going to get paid less than they expect.




  3. #168
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    I have been away from the board for a few days, but I got quite a laugh in on this one.

    1 Completely deluional poster vs The entire Logical world.
    Yes. If I am delusional than so it Tony Agnone. So are all the agents feeding info to Aaron Wilson. So are all of the agents complaining to the NFLPA.

    Priceless.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Here you go, here is a simple one for you,. Compare Ellerbe's contract to teh contracts received by David Hawethorne, Curtis Lofton and Stephen Tulloch. Few, if any, people would explain that Ellerbe is the best of the bunch, but he got paid the most BY A LOT. WHY?
    SUPPLY
    and
    DEMAND.
    Last year the market was flooded with MLB'ers and few jobs available. This year, quite the opposite, Ellerbe was CLEARLYthe best aailabel young option, and and more then a few teams interested.
    1) Stars will always get paid. But what if you are not a star? You have to also look at the aggregate.

    And you have to look at why Miami is overpaying.

    1) They want stadium funding
    2) Ireland is in a contract year (hot seat)

    Gee did you notice that Miami also introduced a new logo? There are making a concerted effort to get fans to come to Dolphins games to get more tax money for the stadium.




  4. #169
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Yes. If I am delusional than so it Tony Agnone. So are all the agents feeding info to Aaron Wilson. So are all of the agents complaining to the NFLPA.

    Priceless.



    1) Stars will always get paid. But what if you are not a star? You have to also look at the aggregate.

    And you have to look at why Miami is overpaying.

    1) They want stadium funding
    2) Ireland is in a contract year (hot seat)

    Gee did you notice that Miami also introduced a new logo? There are making a concerted effort to get fans to come to Dolphins games to get more tax money for the stadium.
    Well then you have to look at why teams aren't spending. The MAJORITY are tight against the cap... Can't spend money you don't have




  5. #170

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    1) Are the 32 NFL teams viewed as 1 entity, or 32 separate entities?
    2) How does the answer to 1) impact application of section 1 of the Sherman Act with regards to the market for player contracts and potential collusion?
    1) They are separate (American Needle v. NFL)

    2) AFAIK, that determination was pushed to lower courts. SC did not rule on whether the NFL was acting in an anticompetitive way under Sherman.
    I've upped my standards. Up yours.




  6. #171

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Huff was All Pro 2010. As was John Abraham (currently unsigned).

    Nothing I say will convince you anyway.
    Abraham is ancient. Huff graded out much worse than he actually is because he was playing out of position in the middle of a terrible defense. And as you pointed out yourself, those guys were All Pros THREE SEASONS AGO. Look who got paid: QBs, WRs, and young, up and coming defensive players. Just because older defensive veterans are not getting the contracts they used to have doesn't mean the owners are somehow colluding to spend less. It just means they are spending differently. Literally all evidence shows this to be true.




  7. #172
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Answer this question. What does any of this have to do with what your "evidence"?
    If you knew the answer to my question you would know.




  8. #173

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Huff was All Pro 2010. As was John Abraham (currently unsigned).

    Nothing I say will convince you anyway.
    Which was .... drum roll ..... THREE YEARS AGO. I knew you would bring up Huff, a player who's universally considered to have not come close to his potential. News flash: he's not an All Pro; he's a one-time FORMER All Pro.

    What would convince me is a logical argument backed up with facts. You've presented neither.
    I've upped my standards. Up yours.




  9. #174

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by moose10101 View Post
    1) They are separate (American Needle v. NFL)

    2) AFAIK, that determination was pushed to lower courts. SC did not rule on whether the NFL was acting in an anticompetitive way under Sherman.
    His questions are entirely moot in terms of this issue anyway.

    The CBA is what governs the players ability to seek redress here, not the Sherman Act.

    This is why the NFLPA had to decertify in order for players to sue the NFL on antitrust grounds during the recent labor fight (Brady vs. NFL).

    The CBA, however, does include language that forbids collusion by owners to depress players' salaries. But this is obvious.

    As you know (but he may not know), no one here is defending the owners' non-existent rights to collude, we are simply saying there is no evidence of collusion (currently).




  10. #175
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by moose10101 View Post
    1) They are separate (American Needle v. NFL)

    2) AFAIK, that determination was pushed to lower courts. SC did not rule on whether the NFL was acting in an anticompetitive way under Sherman.
    So if they are separate...are they allowed to agree on the prices of the free agent market in view of Sherman section 1?




  11. #176
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    His questions are entirely moot in terms of this issue anyway.

    The CBA is what governs the players ability to seek redress here, not the Sherman Act.

    This is why the NFLPA had to de-certify in order for players to sue the NFL on antitrust grounds during the recent labor fight (Brady vs. NFL).

    The CBA, however, does include language that forbids collusion by owners to depress players' salaries. But this is obvious.

    As you know (but he may not know), no one here is defending the owners non-existent rights to collude, we are simply saying there is no evidence of collusion.
    Exactly, the money is being spent, just not on the older guys.




  12. #177
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    If you knew the answer to my question you would know.
    Deflection noted.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  13. #178

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Yes. If I am delusional than so it Tony Agnone. So are all the agents feeding info to Aaron Wilson. So are all of the agents complaining to the NFLPA.

    Priceless.



    1) Stars will always get paid. But what if you are not a star? You have to also look at the aggregate.

    And you have to look at why Miami is overpaying.

    1) They want stadium funding
    2) Ireland is in a contract year (hot seat)

    Gee did you notice that Miami also introduced a new logo? There are making a concerted effort to get fans to come to Dolphins games to get more tax money for the stadium.
    agents complaining becuase their paychecks are shrinking proves ZERO.
    ZERO. had to say that twice for impact.
    So MIA is not part of the "collusion"
    I guess Cleveland is exempt as well. Basically all the teams with substantial capspace are not par tof the collusion? Only those tight against the cap are colluding?




  14. #179
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    His questions are entirely moot in terms of this issue anyway.

    The CBA is what governs the players ability to seek redress here, not the Sherman Act.

    This is why the NFLPA had to de-certify in order for players to sue the NFL on antitrust grounds during the recent labor fight (Brady vs. NFL).
    Indeed. But once they decertify the applicable law is...the Sherman Act.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    As you know (but he may not know), no one here is defending the owners non-existent rights to collude, we are simply saying there is no evidence of collusion.
    Yet.

    Perhaps there is a major misunderstanding.

    All I am saying is that the current comments by the likes of Aaron Wilson and this new letter by D Smith support my suspicion of collusion. Is there acutal collusion? I cannot say - I am not the one fielding offers from the various teams.

    Would I be suspicious if I talk to 5 different teams and they all just so happen to arrive at a similar deal?

    Is that a mere coincidence?

    Is the teams parallel conduct independent, or concerted?




  15. #180

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by arnie_uk View Post
    Exactly, the money is being spent, just not on the older guys.
    maybe it's age based discrimination??? Are the owners colluding against the older players? that would be more palatable.

    It's a young man's game... money is only being spent on players coming off their Rookie deals. I thoguth that was obvious, and is no basis for collusion, it's a CHOICE to spend on younger players.




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