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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    This stuff now is the tip of the iceberg. It is in the early early stages.

    Maybe it turns out to be nothing. Maybe it turns out to be something.

    I started this thread a month ago in early free agency and the core issue of my suspicions is continually being validated by people in the industry.

    Yet I continue to catch heat daily as if I was way off base in my original thoughts.

    Aaron Wilson has inside sources. He posts reliable news. Weeks ago he posted about agents and the "c" word. I don't see anyone busting his balls. Now just yesterday we see clear action by the NFLPA. And yet people dismiss it, instead of viewing it as another rung of the original premise of the thread. Another piece of the puzzle.
    I have not read through the whole thread but if the last few pages are an example of the "heat" you've been getting, I think it's more from you passing conjecture and bias agent rhetoric off as evidence.

    Agents (and the union) love to use the word collusion. A successful collusion claim would mean more money in their pocket so their bias, inherently, is against the league in terms of contract matters.

    Just because an agent got a reporter (who is affiliated in a union himself) to reprint a collusion speculation is light years away from proof it exists or tangible evidence.

    By your own admission, this is the tip of the iceberg. By definition then, there's speculation and nothing else at this point.

    But I agree with GOTA. It's a worthwhile debate. But if past threads about the CBA and the players union are a guide, you're not going to find many who agree with you.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  2. #137
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Aaron Wilson has inside sources. He posts reliable news. Weeks ago he posted about agents and the "c" word. I don't see anyone busting his balls. Now just yesterday we see clear action by the NFLPA. And yet people dismiss it, instead of viewing it as another piece of support of the original premise of the thread. Another piece of the puzzle.
    Okay, in all seriousness, this is why I started to comment on this thread. Aaron Wilson's sources about the Ravens or players moves do not validate what D. Smith is saying simply because Aaron tweeted D. Smith is suspicious.

    The two have nothing to do with each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    It reminds me of when that random dude started a thread about Suggs blowing out his Achilles way before any media outlet and everyone called BS. Then BAM!...it was true.
    A bit of a stretch, just a bit.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  3. #138
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    i haven't seen anyone directly attack you, you're just getting super defensive because not many believe what amounts to nothing but lots and lots of repeated speculation from a couple of agents (who would obviously benefit greatly if collusion were able to be proven) and a credible sports writer who said what amounts to, 'yea i heard this from this guy,'. not damning evidence by any stretch. i personally think the story could grow some legs at some point, if only because i'm a paranoid bastard and when a group of rich and powerful people with common interests (i.e., owners) could have a chance to get together and increase both their power and wealth within their realm the chances are pretty good they'd at least think about it. at this stage though? it's gonna take more than an agent and a sports writer in able for someone to claim, 'validation'.




  4. #139
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Bout as much as you have, nothing really.
    Follow the chronology of the thread.

    On 3/14 I suspected collusion.

    On 3/18 Aaron Wilson first posted about suspected collusion.

    On 3/28 I heard agent Tony Agnone complain about collusion.

    On 4/3 the NFLPA issues a letter asking agents to divulge info re: collusion.

    I mentioned this idea of collusion before the media ever came out with it.

    Yet I've added nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Why would I spend my time doing that, just because agents have no other reason than to tell their d-lineman clients, you play the wrong side of the ball for a big contract?
    Your lack of knowledge on the topic hinders your understanding. I is not so simple.




  5. #140
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Follow the chronology of the thread.

    On 3/14 I suspected collusion.

    On 3/18 Aaron Wilson first posted about suspected collusion.

    On 3/28 I heard agent Tony Agnone complain about collusion.

    On 4/3 the NFLPA issues a letter asking agents to divulge info re: collusion.

    I mentioned this idea of collusion before the media ever came out with it.

    Yet I've added nothing.
    If you think that is evidence, you're in for a very short career as a lawyer.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Your lack of knowledge on the topic hinders your understanding. I is not so simple.
    Please tell me how you know what I know about this topic?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  6. #141
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Okay, in all seriousness, this is why I started to comment on this thread. Aaron Wilson's sources about the Ravens or players moves do not validate what D. Smith is saying simply because Aaron tweeted D. Smith is suspicious.

    The two have nothing to do with each other.
    Aaron Wilson:
    Lot of agents using C word, collusion, when discussing free agency patterns and trends. Very tough to prove, and it's a buyers' market
    7:54 AM - 18 Mar 13

    4/3:
    NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith has told agents that the union has “heard reports of a concern that teams are working in concert” to “set” player compensation, NFL Network’s Albert Breer reported Wednesday.


    No. Nothing to do with each other at all...

    If you fucking paid attention you would see the Aaron Wilson tweet predated the comments from D Smith by WEEKS.




  7. #142
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    If you think that is evidence, you're in for a very short career as a lawyer.
    I bet.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Please tell me how you know what I know about this topic?
    Your stupid posts?




  8. #143
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Your stupid posts?
    That have said what specifically about collusion or antitrust?

    Please be specific..
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  9. #144

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    I bet.

    Your stupid posts?
    So much for playing the "taking shit" card.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    And I've contributed waaaaaaaaaaaay more support to the validity of my side than you have to yours.
    Keep telling yourself that. Quoting a bunch of people who say "hey, I wonder if there's any collusion going on", or posting that a union guy says he's had "reports of a concern" (that's priceless) aren't much of a contribution. And posting a reporter's quote of something you've already posted doesn't mean it counts twice.

    Look, you want to do something useful? Look at the top salaries last year for FA's and players who were entering the last year of their contract and signed an extension. Leave out players who reworked to reduce their cap hit. Then do the same for this year, and post both sets of numbers.

    Frankly, spouting conspiracy theories while being too lazy to do any analysis is a really bad sign, whether you're going to be a lawyer or any other kind of professional.
    I've upped my standards. Up yours.




  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    I bet.

    Your stupid posts?
    Dude, there's NO need for that here.

    A simple message board debate should be far more easier from a criticism standpoint than the past three years of the Socratic method you've had in law school.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  11. #146

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Follow the chronology of the thread.

    On 3/14 I suspected collusion.

    On 3/18 Aaron Wilson first posted about suspected collusion.

    On 3/28 I heard agent Tony Agnone complain about collusion.

    On 4/3 the NFLPA issues a letter asking agents to divulge info re: collusion.

    I mentioned this idea of collusion before the media ever came out with it.

    Yet I've added nothing.

    Your lack of knowledge on the topic hinders your understanding. I is not so simple.
    The problem with your tack here is that the only possible way the claim can be true is if the owners are spending a smaller percentage of the cap than usual. I see no evidence of this at all (admittedly, I am only eyeballing general, preliminary figures).

    Anecdotal claims about specific players signing for less than they "should" means nothing here. Literally nothing. Unless it goes hand in hand with the owners somehow benefiting (i.e. spending less money, keeping more money).

    Since teams still have months to finalize their rosters and spend their remaining cap space, there is no possible way any claim can have any merit right now even if eventually it does gain merit.

    Accusations or nebulous suspicions by self-interested parties should be assigned no weight, imo, without at least some evidential support.




  12. #147
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    to me it's simple mathematics plus the huge amount of FAs available. Teams like the Ravens just signed their QB to a huge contract, so it's going to limit other positions (especially teams who are have higher cap hits at the QB position). Teams like Miami who have a QB and LT on their rookie contracts can go out and sign Mike Wallace, Ellerbe, etc.
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  13. #148
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Aaron Wilson:
    Lot of agents using C word, collusion, when discussing free agency patterns and trends. Very tough to prove, and it's a buyers' market
    7:54 AM - 18 Mar 13

    4/3:
    NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith has told agents that the union has “heard reports of a concern that teams are working in concert” to “set” player compensation, NFL Network’s Albert Breer reported Wednesday.


    No. Nothing to do with each other at all...

    If you fucking paid attention you would see the Aaron Wilson tweet predated the comments from D Smith by WEEKS.
    His point being AW is just regurgitating what he's heard in the grapevine, not something he has suspected itself, so its all wrapped up in one bundle, its no different evidence, sorry its not a different suspicion because he's repeating what he's been told.

    That's like me telling a mate here in the uk, collusion might be happening then you trying to say that's evidence because I said it.....




  14. #149

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    It is funny that you use that as basis to negate collusion. The NFLPA is going so far as to post DAILY updates in 4 hour increments on every team's salary cap situation. I don't think this has ever been done before. They are doing it so agents can see how much teams really have (e.g. for when the teams says "we only have $XXX money left", the agents can call BS.
    I'd love to see an agent call BS using the NFLPA numbers, now that we know that those numbers are totally eff'd:

    http://russellstreetreport.com/forum...ens-Cap-Update

    How can you "forget" to include a player who signed his $2 million tender more than a week ago? And how can you apply a bonus that wasn't paid? What an embarrassment. This would feed right into the agents' paranoia.
    I've upped my standards. Up yours.




  15. #150
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by arnie_uk View Post
    His point being AW is just regurgitating what he's heard in the grapevine, not something he has suspected itself, so its all wrapped up in one bundle, its no different evidence, sorry its not a different suspicion because he's repeating what he's been told.

    That's like me telling a mate here in the uk, collusion might be happening then you trying to say that's evidence because I said it.....
    The "grapevine" consists of about 715 agents registered with the NFL.

    Please show me an example of the last time agents were complaining so loudly about collusion during free agency.




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