Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 74

Thread: Offensive Line

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    13,453
    Blog Entries
    5

    Re: Offensive Line



    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    I have a sneaky suspicion that we're all going to be disappointed yet again in how the FO handles the OL this offseason. I think they will allow the market to set McKinnie's price and they will have no qualms whatsoever letting him walk if his price is a penny higher than what they want to pay. That will leave us in essentially the same position we were for most of last season--which was once again a crisis of their own creation.

    The Ravens are still fumbling about trying to replace Jonathan Ogden, and still following the same approach they used when JO was here. They simply do not prioritize the OL and never have. They will gladly spend draft picks on offensive linemen, but rarely first rounders (which are usually reserved for high-impact defenders). They do a good job of developing their mid-round picks for the most part but very rarely re-sign them, so they're constantly cycling through players and re-shuffling. The same is true now; they committed long-term to Yanda, but the other 4 OL positions have been continuously in flux.

    I expect the Ravens to go into 2013 with Oher at LT, backed up by the developmental LT of the future. They will add an interior OL who can play guard and center to back up and "compete" with Gradkowski, who will be the starting center in between KO and Yanda. At RT, they will likely give Jah Reid one last shot to get healthy and win a starter's spot (I think he fits better at RT than LG) but he will be pushed by Jack Cornell or a cheap FA in camp.

    Oher at LT is my greatest fear. I keep seeing Jack Cornell's name in this forum and how Castillo is working with him. Another thread said Bisciotti is high on him.




  2. #32

    Re: Offensive Line

    they should draft with the intention of not renewing oher after his rookie contract runs out next year. there was talk earlier in this season about extending oher. i thought that was crazy and apparently it was a bad rumor.

    i was driving one weekend and 98 rock was replaying the denver playoff game on the radio. it must have been the week before the superbowl. i heard ismail say "stay on your block 74". it was in response to a sack on joe. you don't hear players called out much but i think it is obvious to everyone about his level of play.




  3. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Balmer Merlin Hon
    Posts
    3,671
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Offensive Line

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    Oher has played tackle for us on one side or the other for virtually all of Joe's career and neither has yet to miss a game, much less finish the year on IR. I get that Oher isn't a top tackle, but the histrionics about him are getting ludicrous. He's a replacement level starter on the left side and an above average to very good right tackle. Treating him like he's a worthless turnstile is underselling his value.
    Another strawman argument.

    FTR I agree that Oher is an above-average RT & as with McKinnie this year, I would expect him to move to starboard if&when the developmental LT cracks the lineup. I disagree that "he's a replacement level starter on the left side"--he is IMO an adequate stopgap whose presence to port will require adjustments in protection (e.g. help from a TE) &/or game-planning (e.g. faster developing pass patterns) that will keep this offense from achieving its potential.

    Flacco has been amazingly resilient in his career but with Michael at LT I live in apprehension of the day he whiffs on a blitzer, Joe doesn't see him (it is, after all, the blind side) & gets clobbered in a joint- or tendon-unfriendly manner, & the next morning this board is swamped with draft & free-agency threads in mid-season.




  4. #34
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Balmer Merlin Hon
    Posts
    3,671
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Offensive Line

    Quote Originally Posted by Section 502 Raven View Post
    they should draft with the intention of not renewing oher after his rookie contract runs out next year.
    Doubtful he'd be back in any event so long as he's convinced he's a genuine starting LT & deserves to be paid as such. The Ravens will probably offer him a contract that's upper end for a RT, but some team out there will want him to play LT & outbid them. (BTW, you ought to get those shift keys fixed.)




  5. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Pikesville
    Posts
    4,268
    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    Another strawman argument.
    I think bemoaning the inevitably of Flacco being IR'd if Oher plays LT is the real strawman, as evidenced by the fact that he's done it for us for a couple of seasons without Flacco having ever been seriously hurt outside of a hip bruise that he played through.

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    I disagree that "he's a replacement level starter on the left side"--he is IMO an adequate stopgap whose presence to port will require adjustments in protection (e.g. help from a TE) &/or game-planning
    That's basically the definition of a replacement level player. A guy you can plug in and tread water with, but who you look to upgrade or scheme to help.

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    Flacco has been amazingly resilient in his career but with Michael at LT I live in apprehension of the day he whiffs on a blitzer, Joe doesn't see him (it is, after all, the blind side) & gets clobbered in a joint- or tendon-unfriendly manner, & the next morning this board is swamped with draft & free-agency threads in mid-season.
    Name the realistically draftable or affordable free agent left tackle that that sentence doesn't apply to and you may have a point.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  6. #36

    Re: Offensive Line

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    They simply do not prioritize the OL and never have. They will gladly spend draft picks on offensive linemen, but rarely first rounders
    Two of the Ravens' last four 1st round picks were offensive linemen. 50% isn't high enough?

    In rounds 1-3 in the past six years, 6 out of 20 have been O-linemen. That's not enough?




  7. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Scaggsville, MD
    Posts
    1,056

    Re: Offensive Line

    Quote Originally Posted by moose10101 View Post
    Two of the Ravens' last four 1st round picks were offensive linemen. 50% isn't high enough?

    In rounds 1-3 in the past six years, 6 out of 20 have been O-linemen. That's not enough?
    I was about to post the same thing. We've invested heavily enough in the offensive line as far as I'm concerned. It's not the FO's fault that Grubbs wanted too much money to stay, or that they hit on Yanda in the third making Grubbs expendable. It's not the FO's fault that they had to take a prospective LT with flaws like Oher because we haven't drafted in the top ten since Suggs (unless you count our trade down for Flacco, which seems to have worked out all right).

    We drafted Jah Reid and Ramone Harewood and Adam Terry before them as projects that failed to pan out. We just need to keep trying. And to recognize that we could find a decent LT in free agency this year (e.g. Sam Baker) and let him man the spot for a couple years while waiting for our next OT prospect (Menelik Watson?) to mature.

    It is very, very rare for any college player to be able to play LT as a rookie. Even Ogden didn't.




  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    "Merry old England"
    Posts
    9,307
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Offensive Line

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabrosin View Post
    I was about to post the same thing. We've invested heavily enough in the offensive line as far as I'm concerned. It's not the FO's fault that Grubbs wanted too much money to stay, or that they hit on Yanda in the third making Grubbs expendable. It's not the FO's fault that they had to take a prospective LT with flaws like Oher because we haven't drafted in the top ten since Suggs (unless you count our trade down for Flacco, which seems to have worked out all right).

    We drafted Jah Reid and Ramone Harewood and Adam Terry before them as projects that failed to pan out. We just need to keep trying. And to recognize that we could find a decent LT in free agency this year (e.g. Sam Baker) and let him man the spot for a couple years while waiting for our next OT prospect (Menelik Watson?) to mature.

    It is very, very rare for any college player to be able to play LT as a rookie. Even Ogden didn't.
    I wouldn't say its very rare at all anymore. Both Cordy Glenn and Matt Kalil started every game at LT last season and both played well.




  9. #39

    Re: Offensive Line

    Quote Originally Posted by moose10101 View Post
    Two of the Ravens' last four 1st round picks were offensive linemen. 50% isn't high enough?

    In rounds 1-3 in the past six years, 6 out of 20 have been O-linemen. That's not enough?
    The whole story can't be told by counting the number of draft picks. The Ravens' MO on the OL over the years has been very simple: only commit to 1 elite lineman at a time, and fill in the rest with cheaper options. Used to be JO, now it's Yanda. Take college OTs and turn them into guards, take college guards and turn them into centers, and as much as possible do it in the late rounds.

    The Ravens have never hesitated to let quality linemen walk in free agency, then try to fill them in with old, broken-down vets. It works sometimes (Willie Anderson, Matt Birk) and fails sometimes (Bobbie Williams) but it NEVER buys you more than a few years. Meanwhile, the "project" guys they've drafted either fail to pan out, or they DO pan out, and then the Ravens don't want to re-sign them.

    I'm not putting a value judgment on the approach; obviously it's worked out very well given how successful the team has been, and there's no point in blaming them when players don't pan out. I'm just pointing out that year after year, the defense has carried the bulk of the team's cap number while other positions were addressed in more cost effective manners, the OL being one of them. Maybe it's time for that to change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabrosin View Post
    I was about to post the same thing. We've invested heavily enough in the offensive line as far as I'm concerned. It's not the FO's fault that Grubbs wanted too much money to stay, or that they hit on Yanda in the third making Grubbs expendable. It's not the FO's fault that they had to take a prospective LT with flaws like Oher because we haven't drafted in the top ten since Suggs (unless you count our trade down for Flacco, which seems to have worked out all right).

    We drafted Jah Reid and Ramone Harewood and Adam Terry before them as projects that failed to pan out. We just need to keep trying. And to recognize that we could find a decent LT in free agency this year (e.g. Sam Baker) and let him man the spot for a couple years while waiting for our next OT prospect (Menelik Watson?) to mature.

    It is very, very rare for any college player to be able to play LT as a rookie. Even Ogden didn't.
    How did Yanda's emergence render Grubbs expendable? You know the Ravens play two guards at the same time every offensive play, right?

    You can FEEL like the Ravens have "invested heavily in OL," but that doesn't make it true. Monetarily, they have not. The Ravens spent about $15m TOTAL on offensive line last season. Meanwhile, they spent $12m on safeties, $26m on LBs, $13.5m on DL, etc.

    Overall the Ravens spent the 5th most on their defense and the 23rd most on their offense by salary cap dollars last year. They spent 30% more on defense than offense. Check the numbers at this excellent site: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/inte...rancisco-49ers




  10. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Scaggsville, MD
    Posts
    1,056

    Re: Offensive Line

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    The whole story can't be told by counting the number of draft picks. The Ravens' MO on the OL over the years has been very simple: only commit to 1 elite lineman at a time, and fill in the rest with cheaper options. Used to be JO, now it's Yanda. Take college OTs and turn them into guards, take college guards and turn them into centers, and as much as possible do it in the late rounds.

    The Ravens have never hesitated to let quality linemen walk in free agency, then try to fill them in with old, broken-down vets. It works sometimes (Willie Anderson, Matt Birk) and fails sometimes (Bobbie Williams) but it NEVER buys you more than a few years. Meanwhile, the "project" guys they've drafted either fail to pan out, or they DO pan out, and then the Ravens don't want to re-sign them.

    I'm not putting a value judgment on the approach; obviously it's worked out very well given how successful the team has been, and there's no point in blaming them when players don't pan out. I'm just pointing out that year after year, the defense has carried the bulk of the team's cap number while other positions were addressed in more cost effective manners, the OL being one of them. Maybe it's time for that to change?



    How did Yanda's emergence render Grubbs expendable? You know the Ravens play two guards at the same time every offensive play, right?

    You can FEEL like the Ravens have "invested heavily in OL," but that doesn't make it true. Monetarily, they have not. The Ravens spent about $15m TOTAL on offensive line last season. Meanwhile, they spent $12m on safeties, $26m on LBs, $13.5m on DL, etc.

    Overall the Ravens spent the 5th most on their defense and the 23rd most on their offense by salary cap dollars last year. They spent 30% more on defense than offense. Check the numbers at this excellent site: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/inte...rancisco-49ers
    Sure, but it's not very cost-efficient to pay big money to two different players at guard. Guard is the dumpster bin of the offense. If a guy can't cut it at tackle, you can move him in to guard and usually do okay. You can compensate for a guard's deficiencies in a way that you just can't at tackle. And not everyone can play center, make line calls and so forth. Having one stellar guard for pulls and traps is a real asset. Having two is a luxury many teams can't afford. We can't afford it. But we got fine production out of Osemele from the second round when he moved in there.

    When I say "heavily invested", I mean in terms of draft capital, not cash. It's also foolish to look at cap dollars for a single year like that. Better to average out the expected dollars over the life of each contract, rather than focus on year by year variance that can be quite high. Even still, any position where you have young talent is going to look like you're under-investing, when in reality you're just getting a steal.




  11. #41

    Re: Offensive Line

    I think all the OL positions are pretty close to equal in value other than from the supply angle. If all five guys are at least pretty good, the entire playbook is open. If one guy is totally overmatched, the o c has to scheme up some help.
    IMO Oher was not that terrible at lt when Grubbs was there and the rest of the line was decent. The market looks good to find a few good linemen. As long as we end up with a respectable starter at each spot and so e depth the players can be interchangeable.







  12. #42
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    section 132
    Posts
    2,648
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Offensive Line

    Why is it that since the beginning of time, the biggest question mark going into the ravens next season is the Oline.? We are so close...a LT away from an elite unit. But until we get that final piece, its just a below avg mismatch of guys playing out of position. Is there a LT in this draft that we could potentially trade for even if its 10+ spots. LT is the BIGGEST position of need right now. They gotta make something happen!




  13. #43
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    The Land of Verdite
    Posts
    13,337
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Offensive Line

    Quote Originally Posted by ballhawk View Post
    Why is it that since the beginning of time, the biggest question mark going into the ravens next season is the Oline.? We are so close...a LT away from an elite unit. But until we get that final piece, its just a below avg mismatch of guys playing out of position. Is there a LT in this draft that we could potentially trade for even if its 10+ spots. LT is the BIGGEST position of need right now. They gotta make something happen!
    Which is why they can't afford to go cheap with it anymore, unless they draft their guy, and not in the supplemental draft.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  14. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Frederick, MD
    Posts
    31,832
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by ballhawk View Post
    Why is it that since the beginning of time, the biggest question mark going into the ravens next season is the Oline.? We are so close...a LT away from an elite unit. But until we get that final piece, its just a below avg mismatch of guys playing out of position. Is there a LT in this draft that we could potentially trade for even if its 10+ spots. LT is the BIGGEST position of need right now. They gotta make something happen!
    Kind of paints a picture on how difficult it is to find guys who play well in space, you know?

    Sent from my DROID X2 using Forum Runner
    Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer.

    -Arnold Schwarzenegger



    Check out Fatherhood Rules - a blog site dedicated to sports, food, music, movies, and politics.
    http://fatherhoodrules.com




  15. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    The Land of Verdite
    Posts
    13,337
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Offensive Line

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Kind of paints a picture on how difficult it is to find guys who play well in space, you know?

    Sent from my DROID X2 using Forum Runner
    It also shows us how difficult it is to replace Hall of Fame players. For years, LT was the only position on the offensive line that we didn't have to worry about. Now, following the team's second Super Bowl title, it seems to be the only one we DO have to worry about.

    For the record, look at how long it took the Ravens to replace Matt Stover.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Russell Street Report Website Design by D3Corp Ocean City Maryland