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  1. #61

    Re: VONTA LEACH: Is he a MUST KEEP?



    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    Let's all this nonsense of Leach being a "cap casualty". A cap casualty typically takes on one of two shapes. It's either a player released early in free agency in order to make collective room for a team to attack free agency....or....it's a player released later in free agency in order to make room for a specific player. Leach has already cleared through the first stage of that and appears close to clearing the second. The Ravens are likely all but done in free agency at this point.
    what about the late Vet that Ozzie usually picks up? Theyre typically cut for two reasons late in the season, a younger player stepped up... OR theyre not showing to be worth their current rate anymore. Leach could easily fall into that second option where, much like McKinnie last year, we either ask him to take a paycut or get cut right before the season. Thats not for another player but like the other options you outlined theres always that possibility as well. Hes still in no certainty to be on this roster at this juncture.
    -JAB




  2. #62
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    Re: VONTA LEACH: Is he a MUST KEEP?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    One of my favorite players in the whole draft. Very good athlete with plenty of power and physicality to lead block between the tackles, and he's only going to get better as he learns and grows in the fullback position. In the passing game he's a second tight end--VERY soft hands and underrated run after the catch ability. I think the Ravens need to draft him. He'd be a downgrade on Leach as a pure run-blocker, at least initially, but an upgrade in the passing game.
    nice overview. As this offense continues to evolve, it would be worth considering a FB that is a little more of a threat in the passing game. I saw this guy had a few games where he had several catches, 20 in one game. And I do believe Harbs wants to retain the ability to play power football when needed.
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  3. #63
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    Re: VONTA LEACH: Is he a MUST KEEP?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    what about the late Vet that Ozzie usually picks up? Theyre typically cut for two reasons late in the season, a younger player stepped up... OR theyre not showing to be worth their current rate anymore. Leach could easily fall into that second option where, much like McKinnie last year, we either ask him to take a paycut or get cut right before the season. Thats not for another player but like the other options you outlined theres always that possibility as well. Hes still in no certainty to be on this roster at this juncture.
    To your first point, the Ravens have all the Pollard money hitting their books after June 1st, so I think that would be more than enough to sign a late free agent. Heck, we could probably afford that type of player with the room we have now, even if/after McKinnie is signed.

    Secondly, I think the paycut or get released ultimatum is far less likely to be given to Leach than McKinnie. I think the "we'd like to have him, but can live without him" mentality probably exists for both players, but for far different reasons. I think the Ravens were so sick of McKinnie that they could have cared less whether he took the paycut or bolted. They felt his talent warranted a spot, particularly on a young O-line, but only at a number that made sense given the inevitable headaches that he was bound to cause. They also had suspicions about his work ethic and how much he would truly bring to the team, so it had to be at a sensible figure.

    Clearly, no such concerns exist about Leach, who is sorta the anti-McKinnie. You know you are getting a high quality, high effort, high character guy. If the Raven's do pay every penny of the $3m salary that Leach is scheduled to earn, you know EXACTLY what that $3m is buying you. McKinnie's investment was far more volatile.




  4. #64
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    Re: VONTA LEACH: Is he a MUST KEEP?

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    ... It would be pretty cool to lose 1 Harvard guy in Birk and sign another Harvard guy in Juszcyk. The Harvard-Ravens pipeline tradition has begun!
    Well, keep in mind that the Ravens needed a Harvard guy (Birk) to translate Ed Reed's "speeches."
    Now that he's gone, do we really need another intellectual on the roster? LOL... Bc




  5. #65

    Re: VONTA LEACH: Is he a MUST KEEP?

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    To your first point, the Ravens have all the Pollard money hitting their books after June 1st, so I think that would be more than enough to sign a late free agent. Heck, we could probably afford that type of player with the room we have now, even if/after McKinnie is signed.

    Secondly, I think the paycut or get released ultimatum is far less likely to be given to Leach than McKinnie. I think the "we'd like to have him, but can live without him" mentality probably exists for both players, but for far different reasons. I think the Ravens were so sick of McKinnie that they could have cared less whether he took the paycut or bolted. They felt his talent warranted a spot, particularly on a young O-line, but only at a number that made sense given the inevitable headaches that he was bound to cause. They also had suspicions about his work ethic and how much he would truly bring to the team, so it had to be at a sensible figure.

    Clearly, no such concerns exist about Leach, who is sorta the anti-McKinnie. You know you are getting a high quality, high effort, high character guy. If the Raven's do pay every penny of the $3m salary that Leach is scheduled to earn, you know EXACTLY what that $3m is buying you. McKinnie's investment was far more volatile.
    Its all about value. They werent planning on starting McKinnie so he either takes a pay cut or is gone. Leach is the same deal. You can take personalities completely out of it. All these older vet players that weve been scooping up for years right before the season arent malcontents or bad character guys, they simply were being paid too much for their use/skill. Leach most definitely fits that mold whether hes still a good player, good guy and hard worker or not. Leach standing on the sidelines 70% of the time would have more to do with that 3m not being a good value than anything else. Until we go to TC theyre just accumulating talent to have the best pool of players they can. Once were in TC, roles for players will be more defined and sometimes a guy gets left out.
    Last edited by JAB1985; 04-05-2013 at 12:42 PM.
    -JAB




  6. #66

    Re: VONTA LEACH: Is he a MUST KEEP?

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    Threads like this are really frustrating to me. How many times are we going to beat the same f-ing dead horse, guys? How many thousands of posts have we already committed to this topic spread over hundreds of threads?

    Let's all this nonsense of Leach being a "cap casualty". A cap casualty typically takes on one of two shapes. It's either a player released early in free agency in order to make collective room for a team to attack free agency....or....it's a player released later in free agency in order to make room for a specific player. Leach has already cleared through the first stage of that and appears close to clearing the second. The Ravens are likely all but done in free agency at this point.

    I think the only major additions we can expect would be a guy like McKinnie, who is really the only decent option at LT left on the market. If the Ravens did indeed sign McKinnie, I would be shocked if it's for anything more than a $3m hit towards our 2013 cap. That would still leave us about $1.6 under the cap, enough room to handle our rookie class. Plus, we would have the Pollard money after June 1st if we wanted to pursue a later-cut free agent (veteran WR or LB possibly).

    The general idea that we would need to cut Leach in order to free up money for free agency is flawed IMO. There aren't any "splash" type players left in free agency that would use up the remaining cap space that we have. I don't see the Ravens just randomly cutting Leach for the purpose of freeing up that $3m unless their is a specific purpose for that money, which just doesn't appear likely at this moment.

    Leach's strengths might be devalued a bit in today's game, but he is still one of the most efficient players in the NFL today. He is the Tom Brady/Calvin Johnson/Adrian Peterson of fullbacks. Is that efficient of a player, operating at fullback position, worth a $4.33 cap hit? Maybe, maybe not. I don't think that's relevant though. The Ravens clearly see themselves as a better team both on the field and off with him on the roster, and they aren't going to cut him or even ask for a restructure, unless there is a critical need for his cap space. That likelihood looks less likely by each day.
    If the Ravens release Leach, it won't be "in order to free up money for free agency." It will be because he's not worth the $3m that he'll be paid in base salary this year. We have ample evidence that the Ravens have no fear whatsoever of letting good players walk if they don't fit the long-term plan, this year more than any other, and I don't think said plan includes a 31 year old contract-year player at the 11th most important position on offense.

    He might be the best fullback in the league, but he played 40% of the Ravens' offensive snaps last year and even less than that once Caldwell took over. We don't know what the new offense will look like last year, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to think it might have personnel groupings and formations similar to the 02-11 Colts. During those years, the Colts rarely even CARRIED a true fullback at all.

    I do totally agree with you that releasing Leach seems LESS likely now than it did immediately after the season, but it's certainly not "nonsense." Don't overthink the timing issue, since teams wait to release players all the time for reasons we'll likely never know, i.e. exploring the trade market/negotiating/players' own request/etc. There's also a big reason on the team's end that it hasn't happened yet and might not for a little while: the draft. If the Ravens can acquire a fullback/H-back/blocking TE type player in the draft, that increases the odds they'll release Leach.

    I would still put the odds at 60-40 that Leach is released, likely immediately following the draft, and I have no doubt he'll catch on somewhere pretty much instantly at a reduced salary.




  7. #67

    Re: VONTA LEACH: Is he a MUST KEEP?

    Also, another quick caveat to this issue that I think people are consistently forgetting: the cap carryover rule is DRAMATICALLY changing the nature of free agency, IMO. It can't be overstated how much of a game-changer that is. The Ravens might not need $3m for a FA signing this year, but there is NO downside to rolling it over to next year's cap, particularly when several players' cap numbers will be inflating that year and extensions and re-signings for guys like Oher, Pitta, Art Jones, Torrey, etc. will be under consideration.




  8. #68

    Re: VONTA LEACH: Is he a MUST KEEP?

    The bottom line is with all the other cuts that have been made it's impossible to justify his salary.




  9. #69
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    His cap hit is $3 Million and we are doing fine with cap space.

    Still don't understand the prevailing notion that he isn't worth that number, especially given we have no idea how Ozzie plans to use him.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  10. #70

    Re: VONTA LEACH: Is he a MUST KEEP?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    His cap hit is $3 Million and we are doing fine with cap space.

    Still don't understand the prevailing notion that he isn't worth that number, especially given we have no idea how Ozzie plans to use him.
    If you don't understand it, you'll never understand it, then. For YEARS the Ravens have prided themselves on NOT overpaying for blocking fullbacks. All of a sudden, $4.3M makes sense for a blocking fullback? I don't think so.




  11. #71

    Re: VONTA LEACH: Is he a MUST KEEP?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    His cap hit is $3 Million and we are doing fine with cap space.

    Still don't understand the prevailing notion that he isn't worth that number, especially given we have no idea how Ozzie plans to use him.
    his cap hit is 4.33 and hes 9th largest on the team...

    Leach ended up playing just 456 of the team’s offensive snaps -- 42 percent -- which were fewer than backup tight end Ed Dickson and offensive guard Jah Reid, who missed half the season with injuries. Leach, who will turn 32 in November, played just 22 offensive snaps in the Super Bowl win over the San Francisco 49ers.
    so that number considerably dropped (10%) while under caldwell, whos teams never really featured a FB. So knowing he plays less than our 2nd string TE and backup T/G when a guy that features a FB is calling plays, hes still worth 4.33?

    nope. also with the way the new CBA is, if money isnt being used efficiently one year, it hurts future years because of the carry over from year to year. So you cut Leach for a more fair value, you actually save more towards next years cap even if you dont use it this year.
    -JAB




  12. #72
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    Re: VONTA LEACH: Is he a MUST KEEP?

    If we released Leach for the sole purpose of being able to add his $3m onto next year's cap figure, I think that would definitely hurt our marketability with future free agents. That would be a pretty bush league thing to do, particularly after the initial free agency wave was over, and Leach would not command his normal open market value.




  13. #73

    Re: VONTA LEACH: Is he a MUST KEEP?

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    If we released Leach for the sole purpose of being able to add his $3m onto next year's cap figure, I think that would definitely hurt our marketability with future free agents. That would be a pretty bush league thing to do, particularly after the initial free agency wave was over, and Leach would not command his normal open market value.
    No it wouldn't.

    We fans make more of a big deal out of these things than the players do.

    The guy in New England has twice let go what most thought were franchise cornerstones one week before the season started.

    It hasn't hurt their marketability one bit.

    If the money is right, the player will take it.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  14. #74
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    Re: VONTA LEACH: Is he a MUST KEEP?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    His cap hit is $3 Million and we are doing fine with cap space.
    Um, according to Ravor's latest cap hit thread, we're $4.1M under right now. I don't call that just
    fine. We still might have Boldin if it was just fine but they asked him to take a cut because it wasn't fine.




  15. #75
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    Re: VONTA LEACH: Is he a MUST KEEP?

    Vontae Leach is the man. I keep telling you. The best fullback in the league, without question.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




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