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  1. #85
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    Re: Steeler restructures---committing cap suicide



    Also with Reed it's a shoulder issue, with TP it's a lower body issue which is much tougher for the older guys to recover and rebound. Should take a hint from Ray...
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  2. #86
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    Re: Steeler restructures---committing cap suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    He missed 2 games I believe the year he won DPOY (2010), which Reed missed 6 and arguably had a better season (12 less tackles, 1 more INT).

    I think TP has turned a corner where he just cant stay healthy. People say stuff about Reed all the time, but the guys still out there and still making an impact even if its not at a world class level anymore. Cant say the same about TP.
    Yeah, I looked it up. The DPOY was 2010 when he missed 2 games, I can't remember but who, but I think it was Mathews I thought who should have won it.

    The season(s) I was thinking of was 2007 when he made the pro-bowl and played like 10 -11 games and had a really bad year (by pro-bowl standards) and 2009 when he played in like 5 games, maybe 6.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  3. #87
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    Re: Steeler restructures---committing cap suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    I think I stated it pretty concisely. The last two years they have had their seasons end in Denver against a pretty average Denver team QBed by Tim Tebow and with a 8-8 record. If you want to start basing chances for success based on what happened more than two years ago, then you're singing a different tune than me, sir.

    If you think about it, I'm sure there are a lot of teams that would be satisfied with going 20-13 over a two year period and making the playoffs once. I know the Steelers aren't one of them. So their remedy to get back to elite status is to try to squeeze another year out of an aging roster rather than re-investing into a younger one. That's where their issue exists in my humblest of opinions. It's philosophical. If they weren't good enough to get a single playoff win in 2011, when their core players were two years younger, what could possibly make you think they are good enough now?

    It's not like they've done what the Ravens just did by offsetting some of that age (Reed, Lewis, Birk, etc) with good/great draft classes and a handful of younger free agents.

    Also, what does the Steelers appearing in a Super Bowl in 2005 and 2008 have to do with projections for their 2013 success? I'm not sure I follow that logic at all. So much changes in the NFL from year to year and you have to keep your roster fresh to stay ahead of the competition. This isn't the Dallas Cowboys/Buffalo Bills era of 20 years ago. It's very rare that a team gets older and gets better.

    Ask yourself this question. What players currently on the Steeler roster can you legitimately expect to be better football players in 2013 than they were in 2012? I believe most of the players on that list would be guys that you are hoping to rebound from injuries, as opposed to young studs that are ready to blossom. That right there is my biggest source of concern if you're a Steeler fan.
    I was just saying that they have a "precedant for success." I mean, they beat us at home with a 3rd string QB, and played us pretty tough with terrible back-up QB play two weeks before us. They had health problems, but their defense was stout the whole season, and Ben was playing "the best football of his career" early on. Sure, they're a team on the decline, but I wouldn't count them out. And the reality is that who knows how many more season Ben has before he's washed up. In their minds, maybe it maybe it makes more sense to surround him with talent now to get a few more shots at a title before he falls apart. But, as we know, that's probably pretty dumb. It seems like the best way to win titles is to be consistantly good for a long period of time, instead of making short pushes.




  4. #88

    Re: Steeler restructures---committing cap suicide

    I don't disagree with what the Steelers are doing this year. They absolutely could make a run this year similar to what the Ravens did last year. The Ravens did it without a bunch of key people and some aging vets. It is not like they have a great young core that they can turnover the roster and be back at a really high level in a year or two. They have really missed on some drafts. The undoing of the Steelers is going to be Ben's health. It seems as though his body is starting to fail him. His toughness and what made him special early in his career is starting to haunt him. If he can stay healthy, they will be good. He does not seem like the type of player that takes care of his body in the off season. If he starts to physically decline they will be in trouble.

    I have seen some posts talking about the Oline. I think Decastro will be good. Don't know that he will be as good as KO. I also think that Mike Adams will be average at best. Mike Adams was an underachiever and a disappointment at OSU. Pouncey when fully healthy is a great center but he seems to have weak ankles and seems to always be hobbled.

    At some point the lack of infusion of young talent on defense will take effect. It has not happened yet. 8 of their 11 starters this past year were over 30. The only guys under 30 that have pro bowl potential are Woodley and Timmons. Woodley seems to be disinterested in being the best.

    On offense they definitely have some holes to fill. They need a RB and a WR. Also TE may be a concern with Miller tearing his ACL at the end of the season. Wallace was their best wr and will be missed. The oline should be better this year and rbs are generally not too hard to find.

    If they stay healthy they could make a run this year. Might as well do it while your aging defense is still playing at a high level and you have a franchise QB.




  5. #89

    Re: Steeler restructures---committing cap suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Yeah, I looked it up. The DPOY was 2010 when he missed 2 games, I can't remember but who, but I think it was Mathews I thought who should have won it.

    The season(s) I was thinking of was 2007 when he made the pro-bowl and played like 10 -11 games and had a really bad year (by pro-bowl standards) and 2009 when he played in like 5 games, maybe 6.
    I think I was in the Mathews camp as well. Reed was a difference maker that year, as our D really looked night and day different with him back there vs not (4-2 over those games, lost to ATL and PIT the rest of the way). I remember talking to Steelers fans about how TP wasnt really the best DP (I think they won both games he missed), as Reed had similar production in 4 less games and i didnt think he really deserved it either. Not sure how he won that one, but probably similar to why he was a probowler those other years, Name Recognition.

    back to topic of the "Steelers Demise", in a league of parity, I dont think any team is ever "dead", theyre just less likely because they dont have the depth required to win. How many teams get hot in the playoffs because they get back healthy players or were just healthier in general than other teams? thats the defining characteristic as much as just about anything else of a SB contender and/or champion. Its what happened to us, the giants, Packers... So saying theyll be competitive, sure if they dont get bit by the injury bug, theyll be just as good as they always are, but if/when they do get injuries, the effects of this style of running a team will be greater because those players they rely on are older and the ones that will more likely be the ones that get injured.
    Last edited by JAB1985; 03-01-2013 at 09:44 AM.
    -JAB




  6. #90

    Re: Steeler restructures---committing cap suicide

    For months we heard how the cap was going to remain flat. Turns out it's going up another $2M. Maybe the Steelers expect the cap to go about a little more than the rest of the league thinks in the next two years. If so they'll be able to absorb some of those restructurings and still field a competitive team. I'm not writing them of that's for sure.




  7. #91
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    Re: Steeler restructures---committing cap suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    The Steelers do this every year. Eventually they are going to get near the end of Ben's contract and end up with a crazy guaranteed number on a declining player. They must feel that they can win now and are willing to sacrifice the future to make it happen.
    'win now' is indicated by their QB situation. they keep Leftwich (old) and Batch (older) and let Dixon go. wonder what they'll say if DD lights it up in Philly.
    they have no QB Of The Future so they'd better keep BBen upright...which hasn't happened here lately.
    Baltimore Ravens, 2012 NFL Champions!




  8. #92

    Re: Steeler restructures---committing cap suicide

    It's been happening before our eyes for two years now and people are still skeptical. They are not the big bad Steelers anymore. They've been doing these restructures, in favor of players who can't stay healthy. I keep reading people declare "When they are healthy" or "When healthy".

    They aren't going to be healthy anymore. It's only going to get worse. They are trying to hold off the inevitable. Two years ago, we declared that the Steelers weren't dead and the Ravens took the division from them by force. Last year, we declared that the Steelers weren't dead and they went 8-8.

    It's not going to get any better.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  9. #93

    Re: Steeler restructures---committing cap suicide

    I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize if this has already been said, but I think there is a bit of a misconception of how the Steelers structure their contracts and how it compares to how the Ravens do contracts.

    The Ravens have always favored sizeable bonus money, with smaller base salaries that get prorated over the life of the deal (up to 5 years). This is money that cannot be restructured in any way because once it's paid, it's prorated.

    The Steelers OTOH give out smaller bonuses - therefore less initial prorations - and much larger base salaries.

    So, right now, the Ravens only really have 3 guys they could restructure (Suggs, Ngata, Yanda) and get any sort of cap relief because of all the relatively low base salaries. Basically, the Ravens have a greater percentage of their Cap tied up in bonus proration, and less in base salaries.

    OTOH, the Steelers have more of their Cap tied up in base salaries and less in bonus prorations (although, obviously, the restructures over the last 2 years has changed that).

    The point is that the Steelers actually had/have greater Cap flexibility than the Ravens have/had. The Steelers, by doing all of those restructures, have basically turned base salary into bonuses to be prorated. They NOW have a Cap that looks more like the Ravens because of the greater amount of prorations. They would be wise to stop doing so, but it's the higher base salaries that has recently put them over the Cap, but also gave them an easy fix, for the most part. Now, their prorations/base salary ratio is looking more like the Ravens, but that was after they used the flexibility they had to convert base salary to bonus and reduce this Cap.

    In other words, IMO, much of the talk of their Cap woes was great exaggerated. They certainly aren't in great shape, but they are nowhere near in as bad of shape as people want to think or all of the restructures might indicate. Yes, those restructures created more bonus prorations in future years, but they had less of them to start with, so it's not as damaging as it would appear at first blush.
    Last edited by B-more Ravor; 03-04-2013 at 01:05 AM.
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  10. #94

    Re: Steeler restructures---committing cap suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize if this has already been said, but I think there is a bit of a misconception of how the Steelers structure their contracts and how it compares to how the Ravens do contracts.

    The Ravens have always favored sizeable bonus money, with smaller base salaries that get prorated over the life of the deal (up to 5 years). This is money that cannot be restructured in any way because once it's paid, it's prorated.

    The Steelers OTOH give out smaller bonuses - therefore less initial prorations - and much larger base salaries.

    So, right now, the Ravens only really have 3 guys they could restructure (Suggs, Ngata, Yanda) and get any sort of cap relief because of all the relatively low base salaries. Basically, the Ravens have a greater percentage of their Cap tied up in bonus proration, and less in base salaries.

    OTOH, the Steelers have more of their Cap tied up in base salaries and less in bonus prorations (although, obviously, the restructures over the last 2 years has changed that).

    The point is that the Steelers actually had/have greater Cap flexibility than the Ravens have/had. The Steelers, by doing all of those restructures, have basically turned base salary into bonuses to be prorated. They NOW have a Cap that looks more like the Ravens because of the greater amount of prorations. They would be wise to stop doing so, but it's the higher base salaries that has recently put them over the Cap, but also gave them an easy fix, for the most part. Now, their prorations/base salary ratio is looking more like the Ravens, but that was after they used the flexibility they had to convert base salary to bonus and reduce this Cap.

    In other words, IMO, much of the talk of their Cap woes was great exaggerated. They certainly aren't in great shape, but they are nowhere near in as bad of shape as people want to think or all of the restructures might indicate. Yes, those restructures created more bonus prorations in future years, but they had less of them to start with, so it's not as damaging as it would appear at first blush.
    I've noticed this as well, but I think you might not have read enough to get the original point. I don't think whether the Steelers put their money in bonuses or base salary is really all that relevant to their current predicament. Had this team restructured those base salaries in order to bring in younger free agents (a la Corey Graham or Jacoby Jones), having less money tied up in bonuses would be an asset. But they haven't. I really can't think of a significant free agent that they've added in the last five years. Instead, they've opted to keep pouring money into the same core of 10 players or so regardless of whether it makes sense or not to do so.

    Troy Polamalu is worth nowhere near his $11 million. I wouldn't pay Colon half of the $8 million he's scheduled to make. James Harrison was given a $51m contract when he was 31 years old. That contract has a cap # of over $10 million for his age 35 season and $9m for his age 36 season. That contract also had $4.8 million in dead money after the age of 35. Ike Taylor was given a contract as he entered his age 31 season that scheduled him for $9.4 million as a 33 year old and $10.4 as a 34 year old. His contract also contained $6.8 million in dead money over those 33/34 aged seasons.


    The Steelers took a philosophical angle to keep their same guys and ride them to the bitter end at the expense of freshening up their roster with younger talent from other teams. This is the stage where that philosophy is going to catch up to them.

    Also, if anything, the fact that the Steelers have less money tied up in bonuses and more money in base salaries, makes this decision making process all the more indefensible. It wasn't as if these bonus-related dead money amounts backed them into a corner where they had no option but to keep these players. They could have easily cut ties with them at a great savings, but decided not to.




  11. #95
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    Re: Steeler restructures---committing cap suicide

    The Steelers don't sign anyone, all they do is draft and keep really old players, and then those drafted players get buried on the roster and have a hard time developing. I think thats one of the reasons why there's been a lot of poor drafts recently with the Steelers, the younger players for the most part haven't been given a chance. So essentially a large % of the Steelers starting team has been the same team since their last SB win, apart from a few guys like Hines Ward, etc.... That is all well and good if you have a team as young as the Houston Texans or the 49ers, but they are just really old now, and they need to make some roster changes IMO. You can't just purely build your team through the draft either.

    Its not like you have to overspend for big names either. We signed guys that some people had never heard about, like Corey Grahame and Bernard Pollard, and those players were key cogs and helped us win the SB in the end. Boldin was a trade, and Jacoby was an under the radar signing.




  12. #96

    Re: Steeler restructures---committing cap suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize if this has already been said, but I think there is a bit of a misconception of how the Steelers structure their contracts and how it compares to how the Ravens do contracts.

    The Ravens have always favored sizeable bonus money, with smaller base salaries that get prorated over the life of the deal (up to 5 years). This is money that cannot be restructured in any way because once it's paid, it's prorated.

    The Steelers OTOH give out smaller bonuses - therefore less initial prorations - and much larger base salaries.

    So, right now, the Ravens only really have 3 guys they could restructure (Suggs, Ngata, Yanda) and get any sort of cap relief because of all the relatively low base salaries. Basically, the Ravens have a greater percentage of their Cap tied up in bonus proration, and less in base salaries.

    OTOH, the Steelers have more of their Cap tied up in base salaries and less in bonus prorations (although, obviously, the restructures over the last 2 years has changed that).

    The point is that the Steelers actually had/have greater Cap flexibility than the Ravens have/had. The Steelers, by doing all of those restructures, have basically turned base salary into bonuses to be prorated. They NOW have a Cap that looks more like the Ravens because of the greater amount of prorations. They would be wise to stop doing so, but it's the higher base salaries that has recently put them over the Cap, but also gave them an easy fix, for the most part. Now, their prorations/base salary ratio is looking more like the Ravens, but that was after they used the flexibility they had to convert base salary to bonus and reduce this Cap.

    In other words, IMO, much of the talk of their Cap woes was great exaggerated. They certainly aren't in great shape, but they are nowhere near in as bad of shape as people want to think or all of the restructures might indicate. Yes, those restructures created more bonus prorations in future years, but they had less of them to start with, so it's not as damaging as it would appear at first blush.
    There you go, spoiling my fun. I hope you're happy with yourself.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




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