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  1. #16

    Re: Cosell on running qb's: Running qb's are great but throwing from the pocket is still the best option



    The only way the read option survives is if the league puts in new rules protecting QBs while running. If you look at a lot of the injuries to QBs it has usually been outside the pocket. There were a few knee injuries to QBs in the pocket and the NFL created a rule that you are not allowed to hit them in the knees or below. You also cant hit them in the head. Outside the pocket they are fair game. Defenders tee off on QBs every chance they can. Ben is guy that gets out of the pocket and extends plays. He has been hit so much that his body is starting wear down. The players in the NFL are just to big and fast to risk your QB carrying the ball on a regular basis.




  2. #17
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    Re: Cosell on running qb's: Running qb's are great but throwing from the pocket is still the best option

    Running QBs rarely win the SB. Not Cunningham, not McNabb, not Vick, not Kaepernick this year.

    The closest is maybe Rodgers? Big Ben? No one would label them running QBs, they just happen to at times make some good plays with their feet.

    Until running QBs start winning the SB I will stick with pocket passers, who have proven success in winning SBs.




  3. #18
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    Re: Cosell on running qb's: Running qb's are great but throwing from the pocket is still the best option

    It is not as difficult to defend as Trent Dilfer would lead you to believe. He mentions a numbers game. Well, when you have a NT the caliber of Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork or Haloti Ngata (When he played NT more often), that starts to reverse that numbers game. A player of that caliber has to be double teamed. Then, you need OLBs who can set the edge. After that, if the RB isn't scorching you, it becomes a hindrance to the QB's ability to get into a throwing rhythm.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  4. #19
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    Re: Cosell on running qb's: Running qb's are great but throwing from the pocket is still the best option

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Running QBs rarely win the SB. Not Cunningham, not McNabb, not Vick, not Kaepernick this year.

    The closest is maybe Rodgers? Big Ben? No one would label them running QBs, they just happen to at times make some good plays with their feet.

    Until running QBs start winning the SB I will stick with pocket passers, who have proven success in winning SBs.
    Steve Young says hello.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  5. #20
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    Re: Cosell on running qb's: Running qb's are great but throwing from the pocket is still the best option

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Steve Young says hello.
    Young's highest rushing yards in a season was 537. Oh and only 3 times did he actually play a full 16 game season in his career. Coincidence?

    537 is also generally much less than the other QBs I listed as true "running" QBs.

    CAREER HIGH RUSH YARDS IN A SEASON
    Rodgers: 356 (example of a mobile QB, but not a running QB)
    Wilson: 489
    McNabb: 629
    Kaepernick: 415 (10 starts, full season would project to around 650-700 yards)
    Newton: 741
    Griffin: 815
    Cunningham: 942
    Vick: 1039


    You think Young belongs in the same discussion with Vick, Cunningham, etc. as a "running"QB? He was mobile. I don't know that he rises to the level of these other guys though. Some of them almost double Young's career high rush yards in comparable seasons.

    I think QB types goes pocket/mobile/running. Pocket = basically no rushing. Mobile = a decent amount of rushing. Running = one of the primary elements of their game. I think Young is more in the "mobile" group than the "running" group. Similar to Rodgers.

    Even if Steve Young is deemed a running QB...after that you have guys like Elway, Brady, Manning(s), Brees, Big Ben, Rodgers, Flacco. None of those guys are running QBs. So, running QBs really don't win many SBs. If running QBs win the next 5-10 SBs, let me know.
    Last edited by bt12483; 02-19-2013 at 12:51 PM.




  6. #21
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    Re: Cosell on running qb's: Running qb's are great but throwing from the pocket is still the best option

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Young highest rushing yards in a season was 537. Oh and 3 times did he actually play a full 16 game season.

    537 is less than the other QBs I listed.

    McNabb: 629
    Cunningham: 942
    Vick: 1039
    Kaepernick: 415 (10 starts)
    Griffin: 815

    You think Young belongs in the discussion with Vick and Cunningham and Kaepernick as a "running"QB? He was mobile. I don't know that he rises to the level of these other guys though. Some of them almost double Young's career high rush yards.
    In his day, yes, Young was considered a running QB. They had designed running plays for him. I don't see how total yardage has anything to do with it. Maybe he was not the best ever running QB or the most dynamic but he most certainly WAS a running QB.

    So yes, your original premise of "rarely" do running QB's win the Super Bowl is accurate. But it does and has happened. That was my only point.
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  7. #22
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    Re: Cosell on running qb's: Running qb's are great but throwing from the pocket is still the best option

    I think that when you have the conversation about letting QB's run wild or keeping them in the pocket, a lot of it has to do with the attitude about winning now verses planning the long haul. It might be that scrambling QBs are getting popular now because of the emphasis on winning right away, and not having a leash long enough to think about the future. A scrambler can put you in the play-offs right away, but drop-back passers can put you in the play-offs for 10-15 years. If an owner is going to be judging you on what you do right now, it might make sense to trade the future for some immediate success.

    Especially for a fanbase like the Redskins, that can command the arrogance and intensity of a dynasty team as long as they have one good season every 5-6 years.




  8. #23
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    Re: Cosell on running qb's: Running qb's are great but throwing from the pocket is still the best option

    Young was definitely a scrambling QB. He went through a lot trying to learn how to throw from the pocket, if I can remember correctly.

    I don't remember him running the read option though, not suggesting that anybody said he did. It wasn't really until after he made significant strides to throw better from the pocket that San Fransisco won the Super Bowl.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  9. #24
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    Re: Cosell on running qb's: Running qb's are great but throwing from the pocket is still the best option

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    Young was definitely a scrambling QB. He went through a lot trying to learn how to throw from the pocket, if I can remember correctly.

    I don't remember him running the read option though, not suggesting that anybody said he did. It wasn't really until after he made significant strides to throw better from the pocket that San Fransisco won the Super Bowl.
    Yep Young was a scrambling QB not a running QB. Much like Ben, he would make something out of nothing. But it wasn't until he developed as a pocket passer that the 49ers saw success and turned him into a HOFer.

    The read option is a good system for young QBs who haven't learn to play QB at the NFL level yet. But there's a reason that no team runs that offense for any extended about of time. Defenses will eventually catch up. Remember the craze about the wildcat a few years ago. Now no one runs it. The NFL is a copy cat league. Anything successful will be copied by other teams. Yet the read option/pistol is only run by teams with young inexperinced QBs.




  10. #25
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    Both the LA Express and the Niners had design run plays for him.

    Hard to call him a scrambling QB when two teams manufactured plays specifically designed for him to run the ball.
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  11. #26
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    Re: Cosell on running qb's: Running qb's are great but throwing from the pocket is still the best option

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Both the LA Express and the Niners had design run plays for him.

    Hard to call him a scrambling QB when two teams manufactured plays specifically designed for him to run the ball.
    Point taken. But I still couldn't put him on the same list as Vick or RG3.




  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Running QBs rarely win the SB. Not Cunningham, not McNabb, not Vick, not Kaepernick this year.

    The closest is maybe Rodgers? Big Ben? No one would label them running QBs, they just happen to at times make some good plays with their feet.

    Until running QBs start winning the SB I will stick with pocket passers, who have proven success in winning SBs.
    So did John Elway.

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dade View Post
    Point taken. But I still couldn't put him on the same list as Vick or RG3.
    Agreed there.

    While he never had the single season success of an RG3, Vick or even Rodgers, you don't get to be second in career QB rushing yards or tops in QB rushing TD's by simply being a scrambler.

    That was my overall point.
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  14. #29
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    Re: Cosell on running qb's: Running qb's are great but throwing from the pocket is still the best option

    I think that NFL QB's are a lot faster than people give them credit for. If you look at Madden speeds, you would think that they were grannies or something. You just don't see QB's run that often for a few reasons:

    A: Picking up yards on the ground is more about agility and acceleration. I guess this might just be semantics I'm arguing about, but a lot more goes into being a great runner than just top speed. This is why RGIII's marginally impressive 40 time allows him to be such a great rusher.
    B:QB's tend to be very tall. 6'0" at minimum, and most are in the 6'3"-6'6" range. Tall guys can be fast after they've had time to speed, but the height usually hurts their acceleration and agility. That's why RB's like Ray Rice and MJD are so dangerous.
    C: Just being a fast runner doesn't mean you can throw well on the run. Many countless man hours are put into working on the drop back, staying in the pocket, and throwing. Going outside of the pocket and throwing on the run without planting properly takes an entire different skill set.
    D: QB's have longer careers, and speed is the first thing to go for players. Believe it or not, Peyton Manning used to be pretty quick when he was in college and first his first few years in the pros. Any NFL player loses a step in their 30's, but luckily for QB's, you don't need speed to be great.
    E: Smart QB's who are forward thinking try to make plays with their arms and not put their bodies and careers at risk, and smart coaches and owners don't want to see their $10 million or more man at risk.




  15. #30
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    Re: Cosell on running qb's: Running qb's are great but throwing from the pocket is still the best option

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    You think Young belongs in the same discussion with Vick, Cunningham, etc. as a "running"QB? He was mobile. I don't know that he rises to the level of these other guys though. Some of them almost double Young's career high rush yards in comparable seasons.
    Young was more than just a scrambler. He was one of the best QB's once he tucked the ball down and headed down the field. Just looking at the stats doesn't tell the whole story. He was like a fullback in the open field. He's the reason I hate the slide rule. Young would watch the defender, and if he held up waiting for Young to slide, he'd lower his shoulder and truck the guy. If he came in hard, Young would try to slide late and draw a penalty.

    He picked up a concussion or two with that tactic, too. Smart in the short term, maybe not so much over the course of a career.

    Young wasn't a "running QB" in the same vein as Cunningham or Vick, but he had a much better arm than Cunningham or Vick. When he did run, however, it was extremely effective.

    However, he's a bad argument for "running QB wins SB." He didn't run much that year (didn't need to), and was far, far more a pocket passer at that point in his career.




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