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  1. #91

    Re: Where Does Flacco Rank Amongsts the League's Best QB's?



    Quote Originally Posted by psuasskicker View Post
    DUDE!

    Both QBs have five years as the primary starter.
    Aaron Rodgers was not the immediate starter out of the draft. That is fact. Flacco was. So yes, Flacco did it faster and with a worse offense.

    And the reason Rodgers' offense was "far and away better than" the Ravens offense is because of Rodgers!!! Match talent-for-talent:
    The GB OL is better than ours when fully healthy, but has dealt with far more injuries. It's an upgrade, but not a huge one.
    Their WRs/TEs are mostly a downgrade from ours. Jennings is very good. But Rodgers has been doing exactly what Peyton Manning did for years...take whatever Joe Schlub they plugged in, and made him look great. The one argument here is that the Ravens mostly haven't had a good #2 WR here which can compare. But the Ravens TEs have across-the-board been better.
    I disagree with the WR's. Until I'd say this year when we got Jacoby Jones, their WR corps were more experienced, and better than our tandems. That's why we drafted Torrey Smith and went and got Jacoby Jones. Because outside of Anquan Boldin and Derrick Mason, we were bringing in scrap heap WR's to try to plug in the holes.

    Their RBs are significantly worse than the Ravens backs have been.
    This I will give you.

    The Packer had a terrific defense in '09 and '10. They won the Super Bowl with one of those two defenses. Other than those two years, their defenses haven't been in the top ten. Of course no one can make a case that Rodgers would in fact have won one or more SBs in Baltimore over the last five years. But the talent the Ravens have had as a whole across the 21 O/D positions beyond QB is unquestionably better than what the Packers have had over the last five years. There's no question in my mind Rodgers would have nothing less than one ring if he was a Raven, and I honestly believe that with the defenses the Ravens had in '08, '09 and '11, and with how far they went in the playoffs those years with Flacco (who in '08 and '09 was not good in the playoffs...no games over 57% passing, 189 his highest yardage total and a 1:6 TD:INT ratio those years), he'd have two or three rings by now.

    FWIW, I also think he wouldn't likely have won a SB this year on the Ravens. What Flacco did this post-season was flat incredible. It's not getting enough accolades, honestly. If one of the current crop of big-time QBs did what Flacco did, it would be talked about as going down as one of the two greatest post-season performances in the history of the game without question.

    - C -
    Right, and Joe Flacco had to get to and win the Super Bowl with a bottom-half defense that was missing it's top pieces most of the year.

    Again, I'm not taking away from Rodgers. But I would just as easily take Flacco knowing what he has been able to do when not handcuffed by the "system" (aka the offensive coordinator). And that un-cuffed Joe Flacco is every bit as good as Aaron Rodgers. And like Rodgers might have done here, Joe SHOULD have had two rings by now and been to 3 Super Bowls (I'm counting all both AFCC games at this point where it came down to dropped passes).




  2. #92

    Re: Where Does Flacco Rank Amongsts the League's Best QB's?

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    Aaron Rodgers was not the immediate starter out of the draft. That is fact. Flacco was. So yes, Flacco did it faster and with a worse offense.
    Rodgers won the Super Bowl in 2010, his 3rd year as a starter.

    Flacco did it in 2012, his 5th year as a starter.

    In fairness to Flacco, in the 2010 Steeler playoff debacle, he threw the potential game-sealing TD to Boldin, but Boldin dropped it.
    Even then the Ravens still could've won if they didn't try a 3 man pass rush on Ben who burned them deep on that bomb to Brown, with Webb unable to cover him because he still hadn't fully recovered from his knee surgery.
    And even then, Joe could've led them back on a dramatic last minute drive, but Housh dropped the pass on 4th down.

    If Joe only had WRs who caught the ball when it hit them square in the hands and an OC who wasn't the most stubbornly oblivious man ever, then Joe would've had a shot at winning a SB in his 3rd year like Rodgers did.

    Of course, he would've had to face and beat Rodgers to do it.




  3. #93

    Re: Where Does Flacco Rank Amongsts the League's Best QB's?

    It is literally shocking to me that this is a serious discussion...
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  4. #94

    Re: Where Does Flacco Rank Amongsts the League's Best QB's?

    Didn't realize your opinion on the subject was the only correct one. I will retract my opinions from the thread.




  5. #95
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    Re: Where Does Flacco Rank Amongsts the League's Best QB's?

    Quote Originally Posted by psuasskicker View Post
    It is literally shocking to me that this is a serious discussion...
    Why wouldn't it be a serious discussion?

    Flacco just completed one of the best playoff performances in the history of the NFL, statistically speaking. It's arguably better than Montana's '89 season, because Flacco shrugged off numerous would-be sackers to keep drives alive. Not quite Big Ben-like, but with some similarity. I don't recall Montana being challenged that often in the backfield in '89. Flacco had good protection back there, but not like that Niner o-line gave Montana that year.

    This Lombardi punctured the last great excuse of the Flacco-haters (including and especially the Squealer fans): that he hadn't won a championship. It used to be he couldn't beat the Steelers. Then he couldn't beat them at the Steelers. Then it was he couldn't beat Big Ben. Then he couldn't beat Big Ben in Pittsburgh. After all those were done, he couldn't beat Manning and he couldn't win a Super Bowl. Well, count all of those supposed benchmarks as checked off. They're done.

    So now what? What's the excuse for not considering him among the best QB's in the league, and deserving of at least being in the conversation with Rodgers, a QB with just as many SB's and SB MVP's as Flacco?

    I don't think he's as good as Rodgers. At least not now. I think Rodgers's mobility gives him an edge. Perhaps we'll see even more mobility from Flacco next year. He did a lot more moving around- including running up and along the line of scrimmage before delivering a downfield strike- in this year's playoffs than he's done during his career. He is, I suspect, a lot more athletic than most give him credit. People seem to to forget he caught a 44 yard pass in his rookie season (or was that in his sophomore year?). Rodgers doesn't quite have his arm (who does?), but his arm is more than strong enough. I think Rodgers has an edge in accuracy, too. Since they don't play in the same offensive scheme, it's not an easy comparison point for point. I think it's foolish to think that Aaron Rodgers in a Ravens uniform, with Cameron (or worse, Billick!) developing him would be the same Rodgers we see in Green Bay.




  6. #96
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    Re: Where Does Flacco Rank Amongsts the League's Best QB's?

    Quote Originally Posted by PerpetuallyBored74 View Post
    Rodgers won the Super Bowl in 2010, his 3rd year as a starter.

    Flacco did it in 2012, his 5th year as a starter.
    Rodgers 3rd year as starter was actually his SIXTH year in the league. Yes, those years do count sitting on the bench.

    I think Rodgers is better than Flacco, at least for now. That perception might be different if Joe didn't have receivers let him down so badly in 2010 and 2011 in the playoffs.




  7. #97

    Re: Where Does Flacco Rank Amongsts the League's Best QB's?

    This +1

    Not to mention Joe got the job and started right away. He didn't sit and learn from a HOF QB for 3 years.




  8. #98

    Re: Where Does Flacco Rank Amongsts the League's Best QB's?

    It's funny to me that there is even one person on the planet that think the ravens have better WR/TE's then the Packers... it's not close.




  9. #99
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    Re: Where Does Flacco Rank Amongsts the League's Best QB's?

    Here is a HUGE thing we should all recognize as causing problems when comparing Joe with any other quarterback.
    Cam was a huge drawback for Joe and it was evident.
    And with Caldwell, there has been a 180, BUT, it is such a short subset of Joe's entire career numbers we need to see it continue throughout an entire regular season.

    I think Joe has GREAT potential to pick right up where he just left off which could translate into the kind of numbers that leaves no doubt.
    But honestly, we have to wait and see.
    Right now, Joe has indeed set the stage to be great with an incredible post season performance.

    Let's watch and hopefully enjoy witnessing something we have never seen before DURING a regular season from a Raven quarterback.




  10. #100
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    Re: Where Does Flacco Rank Amongsts the League's Best QB's?

    Quote Originally Posted by bacchys View Post
    Why wouldn't it be a serious discussion?
    LOL, apparently you don't know this douche...er I mean dude.




  11. #101

    Re: Where Does Flacco Rank Amongsts the League's Best QB's?

    Because Joe Flacco just had an amazing four game playoff stretch, and Aaron Rodgers just had an amazing FIVE YEAR STARTING CAREER.

    There is not one metric where Joe Flacco outperforms Aaron Rodgers. Not one. His best regular season mirrors Rodgers' worst. Both have one SB MVP and win, and Flacco's been playing with better teams over the past five years.

    You guys act like playoff wins by a QB is the only important metric out there to evaluate a QB. That's nice when you use that as a single metric. But if you want to complain about how Flacco is even better than he looks because, for instance, Lee Evans hanging onto that ball would have given him another win, let's also not pretend that Flacco deserves that 4 of 10 win. And let's also stop pretending that it's the only metric that matters. It's not.

    I don't hear a single person trying to argue that Eli Manning is a better QB than Aaron Rodgers. Yet the guy's 8-2 with an incredible four games with a > 114 QB rating.

    So feel free to argue it if you want, I guess. Let me know how that goes with non-Ravens fans. I'm pretty sure I'll have given a whole lot more cordial response than most would. Allow me to demonstrate how a typical discussion will go with a non Ravens fan...

    [RSR Member]: "I'd rather have Flacco at QB than Aaron Rodgers. Dude's got more playoff wins in his first five years than anyone ever. He won a SB faster than Rodgers. He's better."

    [Non-Ravens fan]: .....

    [RSR Member]: "Seriously. Flacco's better."

    [Non-Ravens fan]: "BAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!"
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  12. #102
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    Re: Where Does Flacco Rank Amongsts the League's Best QB's?

    Quote Originally Posted by psuasskicker View Post
    Because Joe Flacco just had an amazing four game playoff stretch, and Aaron Rodgers just had an amazing FIVE YEAR STARTING CAREER.

    There is not one metric where Joe Flacco outperforms Aaron Rodgers. Not one. His best regular season mirrors Rodgers' worst. Both have one SB MVP and win, and Flacco's been playing with better teams over the past five years.

    You guys act like playoff wins by a QB is the only important metric out there to evaluate a QB. That's nice when you use that as a single metric. But if you want to complain about how Flacco is even better than he looks because, for instance, Lee Evans hanging onto that ball would have given him another win, let's also not pretend that Flacco deserves that 4 of 10 win. And let's also stop pretending that it's the only metric that matters. It's not.

    I don't hear a single person trying to argue that Eli Manning is a better QB than Aaron Rodgers. Yet the guy's 8-2 with an incredible four games with a > 114 QB rating.
    This. It's recency effect that is overrating Flacco right now. Flacco is great. He's top 6 probably. But he's not better than Aaron Rodgers. Every statistical category that matters says Rodgers is better.




  13. #103
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    I am just trying to understand why Flacco has to be better than anyone? He is the best QB for the Ravens right now.

    I think that about wraps up this thread.

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  14. #104
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    Re: Where Does Flacco Rank Amongsts the League's Best QB's?

    Quote Originally Posted by psuasskicker View Post
    Because Joe Flacco just had an amazing four game playoff stretch, and Aaron Rodgers just had an amazing FIVE YEAR STARTING CAREER.

    There is not one metric where Joe Flacco outperforms Aaron Rodgers. Not one. His best regular season mirrors Rodgers' worst. Both have one SB MVP and win, and Flacco's been playing with better teams over the past five years.
    It's debatable the Ravens have had a better team around Flacco the last five years compared to Rodgers with Green Bay, especially offensively. As a Ravens fan, I'm inclined to think the Ravens have been the better team, but Green Bay has good players on both sides of the ball and they've definitely had better players at wide receiver, especially 1 thru 5, than Flacco has enjoyed.

    The offensive scheme at Green Bay also favours Rodgers racking up better stats. The West Coast, even the modified version employed by Green Bay, works to improve a QB's stats, especially QBR, while the Coryell doesn't really give a crap about it (especially the way Cam ran it).

    I think if you could have them switch places the last five years each would have quite different stats than those they did compile. Rodgers in a Cam Coryell, with his feet relatively locked in place by the scheme, wouldn't be nearly as successful as he has been in Green Bay. This is the same system that "earned' Matt Flynn a nice payday...and then he couldn't beat out Russell Wilson in Seattle for a starting spot despite getting the bigger check.

    Again, given what I've seen of them, Rodgers is the better QB. I'd like to see more from Flacco with a different offensive philosophy, even if it stays in the Coryell family. But I don't think the gap between them is quite as large as I suspect you do.




  15. #105

    Re: Where Does Flacco Rank Amongsts the League's Best QB's?

    I never said Joe was better than Rodgers. You have to put things in context. You have to look at the weapons around the QB.

    Rodgers inherited a group that had worked with a future HOF QB. He also has yet to play a season without Driver and Jennings.

    Joe got a group that had suffered through Kyle Boller and has had an ever changing cast of receivers.

    What could Joe have done if he had Driver and Jennings every season?

    What would have happened if Rodgers had Housh and stone hands Evans?

    Too many variables and differences between the systems, coaches, receivers and even opponents to compare.




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