Which was the best, the 2000 or the 2012 SB run?

[alienrace]

Both championship runs hold a special place in my heart. Both had remarkable aspects to them, and in both cases, it seemed many people picked against us during the playoffs. There are so many similarities between the two runs, it's eerie.

For me, the 2000 team was like "oooh, piece of candy!". I was just happy they went to the playoffs. It was our first time there. Then they won the expected game, then the unexpected game. After that win over the Titans, I started smelling championship, and I wanted it...bad. Back then, my wife and I had only been dating a few months, and we didn't watch the game together as she had to work, and I watched it with a couple of long-time friends, drinking beer and eating pizza. When the Ravens went up 17-0, we knew it was over...then it wasn't...then it was again. The rest of the game was sort of a relaxed, coronation of sorts.

2012 was a different animal. The team had been rebuilt, and had been building towards a championship for years. We should have won it in 2006 but didn't. We should have won it in 2010 and 2011, but didn't. Those bitter disappointments, and the way the media treated the Ravens and it's players, particularly Flacco, seemed to rebuild something else - a huge chip on mine, and every other Ravens fan's shoulder. You could see this team building, but the failures of 2010 and 2011 seemed to be looming as maybe our best shots for a ring, as the injuries and age piled up on defense. Meanwhile the offense was picking up the slack, something that had been gradually building since 2008. My wife, now of nearly 10 years, had become a fan and we watched all of the games from 2001 on together, except for a couple when I had to go out of town. It was so cool watching her get more into the games each year. Being able to share the excitement, and emotional roller coaster ride of this playoff run with her made it that more special. Watching players like Flacco and Suggs, who had to deal with the idiots on ESPN constantly putting them down, or the team down, get the last laugh was special.

I have to go with 2012 for a number of reasons. As much as we got to stick it in the face of the naysayers in 2000/2001, this year was the ultimate.

[Uli2001]

It is also possible that we are still too close to the 2012 win to be able to pass unbiased judgement, meaning that we are biased towards the 2012 win. But OTOH will passage of time diminish in any way this 2012 win? If anything, it might augment it.

[Boulderraven]

For me 2001 was, it actually cried after they beat Oakland. My first NFL championship I couldn't believe we lost the Colts and won a title many years later and I was younger of course.

[GaTechRavens]

I feel like picking one is a disservice to the other. I can't decide, and I don't think I ever want to.

[GOTA]

That was also my wife's point. In 2000 they came out of really nowhere to win it. In 2012 they were already NFL Champions, already had that pedigree. But other than that, this year's run was really as improbable or more than in 2000, given how the opponents stacked up in the playoffs.

Gota, I think you ended up agreeing with me, not disagreeing. The 2000 D could not be as dominating now, because of the rules. So under today's rules, a 2012 Ravens - 2000 Ravens matchup could well be won by the 2012 Ravens (with a vastly superior offense, and an inferior, but not vastly inferior, defense, and about equivalent special teams).

Sorry but the 2012 team is a vastly inferior defense to the 2000 team. Obviously though I agree that the the 2012 offense is light years in front of the 2000 offense. I just don't think you can compare teams by saying they would play under a certain set of rules. Each team would play under the rules of their time. In that situation the 2012 would have a lot of trouble get more than 1 offensive touchdown and a couple of field goals.

Now days I see more luck involved then there used to be. I miss the NFL we had for most of my life where a team could dominate to the point where you were absolutely sure they were going to win. That was the 2000 team and it's it's more than just being the first time that makes it more satisfying in my mind. It's the complete dominance they showed against the other teams of their era that's makes them more special in my mind that this team.

[Purple Maniac]

My only thing would be if the 2000 defense loss key starters like 2012. Would they win ?

[ActualSpamBot]

The thing people forget about that 2000 defense is that we were never really challenged by an elite QB. The closest thing to one we faced was Mark Brunell and in one game he torched us and in the other he was absolutely spanked.

In my mind that game would come down to whether Joe could hold up against that ludicrous four man pass rush to get the ball past the linebackers.

To me it's a closer game than some people here expect, but I also think it would be a higher scoring game than they expect too.

[Uli2001]

The thing people forget about that 2000 defense is that we were never really challenged by an elite QB. The closest thing to one we faced was Mark Brunell and in one game he torched us and in the other he was absolutely spanked.

Interesting point. That was a kind of a down time for great QBs in the league. It was just after the retirement of Elway and Marino, and before Manning came into his own and Brees, Brady started their careers. The top QBs of the time were the likes of McNair, Brunel, Richie Gannon (!), Kerry Collins (!!), and, get this, Elvis Grbac (!!!).

But again, the rules of today are much more friendly to prolific QB play.

[JohnBKistler]

KVV put out a tweet on this the other day...many of the responses he got back were along the lines of:

The 2000 SB was about revenge: At the NFL for snubbing Baltimore in the expansion process, at Indianapolis for moving the Colts, at the national media in general that gave 100X more publicity to the plight of the Cleveland fans than the old Baltimore Colts fans, the same media that never gave the Ravens a chance at making the playoffs, and wrote them off during every single playoff game when they did...you had to live through it to appreciate the outright scorn that was directed at Ray Lewis, Billick (who gladly spurred it on) and the "thuggish" Ravens that year...you had members in the national media that were blatantly rooting against the Ravens. And because they rarely played on national TV, and social media was in its infancy....the media and public by-and-large had no clue how dominating was the Ravens defense...and Billick perfectly stated it, "They don't know what is coming..." And when it did, it was sweet revenge.

The 2012 SB team was...to quote Harbaugh - and yes, it's corny - was about love. Although the 2000 team had a few homegrown Ravens players (mainly on the defense, and Ogden and Lewis), many key players were free agents (Siragusa, Woodson, Sharpe), or had ties to the Browns (Stover and Burnett). This year's team was truly "ours"...and it was truly joyous to see Reed get his ring, Suggs get his ring, Flacco, Rice, Torrey Smith, etc. mature and develop into championship caliber players...Tucker performing on the big stage as a rookie, etc....and a special teams coach from the Eagles lead them to the title.

I am not sure which one was better....but I thought the distinction fit.

[LukeDaniel]

Don't forget that this is also the season of the 4th-and-29 play. That was a sign of things to come, if only people would see it.

Gota, this was not originally a debate of which team would win if facing each other, but I will bite. Do you mean playing under 2000 or 2012 rules? Do you realize that the 2000 D would be less dominant playing under current rules? That's one of the reasons such a dominant defense will never be seen again, by the way. I think this would be a very interesting match-up. Both teams played with the same determination, same team of destiny strength. This game would have been decided in the final minutes, or in OT, as each team refused to lose.

That is a fantastic point, Uli. I referenced it in my original post, but let's go back to the Sharper horsecollar that forced 4th down and led to the Del Greco/Washington/Mitchell play. A horsecollar tackle was the only way Sharper gets McNair down in that position. If that's 2013, he either lets him get the first or takes the half-the-distance-to-the-goal personal foul. The Titans might get 7 instead of 0 in that spot if we are operating under 2000/01 rules.

Siragusa's shoulder dislocating tackle of Gannon certainly would have received a personal foul now too.

The game was different back then. That's not to diminish that 2000 defense, but a lot of the type of tackling/hard hitting that made them so feared/dominating is no longer legal today.

[LukeDaniel]

2000 because it was such an improbable run. 2012 was the Ravens 5th straight year in the playoffs, no big surprise they went to the big dance.

I don't know, man. I think you are in a slim minority feeling that way.

I was far more surprised that the 2012 team, which bumbled its way down the stretch, made it so far. Keep in mind that the 2000 team won their last 7 of the regular season I believe. Heading into that playoffs, you expected them to make some noise. You knew that their only obstacle was TENN, a team we had beaten on the road only a few weeks earlier. You had to put the Raven chances of reaching the Super Bowl at 30-40%.

This year, I put our chances at reaching New Orleans at less than 10%. Denver looked unbeatable and smoked us in our own house 4 weeks earlier. Other than the blind optimism that we inherently possess as fans who believe in our team, there was no reason to think we could even compete with Denver, let alone beat them.

[LukeDaniel]

Excellent conversation, folks. Top class analysis.

Let me add one more. In 2000, we were sort of irrelevant, if that makes sense. I would imagine that there were a lot of moderate football fans nationwide who at some point in that season said "Oh yea, they have a team back in Baltimore now". I think a lot of the football nation was ambivalent about us. We weren't really that universally hated.

Scroll ahead 12 years and we are probably the most disliked franchise in the nation when you factor in our small geographic fanbase compared to all the cities/areas where we are hated. I would imagine the Pats/Steelers/Cowboys have even more haters that we do, but they also have a much larger base of support in terms of their number of nationwide fans.

In 2000, when we won, I would imagine a lot of casual fans nationwide thought "man, those Ravens are pretty impressive stomping the Raiders and the Giants". In 2012, the consensus that I get up here in PA (where there is a mishmash of team loyalties) from everyone non-Ravens that I know is more along the lines of "I can't f***ing believe that those f***ing ratbirds lucked their way into another f***ing Super Bowl". The hatred and irritation directed towards the Ravens this year is far stronger, making the win all the sweeter.