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  1. #16
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    Re: The two greatest post-seasons in NFL history: Joe Montana (1989) vs Joe Flacco (2012). Which was better?



    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Silver View Post
    I can say as a former 49er fans and now current Raven fan and steadfast Joe Flacco backer, you guys are nuts. I watched all those games and Montana was a razor. No need to speak of what the defenses were doing, nor special teams, or lucky get up and runs like Jacoby had, Joe Montana was not just cool, razor sharp, but ridiculously efficient in a time when defenses were allowed inter-fear a great deal more than they are today.

    You are being clear homers if you think Montana is anything but #1 in this instance.

    This. Times 2.
    "CARPE LOMBARDI"




  2. #17

    Re: The two greatest post-seasons in NFL history: Joe Montana (1989) vs Joe Flacco (2012). Which was better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Silver View Post
    I can say as a former 49er fans and now current Raven fan and steadfast Joe Flacco backer, you guys are nuts. I watched all those games and Montana was a razor. No need to speak of what the defenses were doing, nor special teams, or lucky get up and runs like Jacoby had, Joe Montana was not just cool, razor sharp, but ridiculously efficient in a time when defenses were allowed inter-fear a great deal more than they are today.

    You are being clear homers if you think Montana is anything but #1 in this instance.
    It depends on if the question is better or more impressive. Montana looked like Jordan out there. There is little argument about him as the GOAT. However. His team was so loaded, and they were just rolling so well that he did not have to face the kind of adversity that Flacco did in this run. Flacco also was not throwing to Jerry Rice, who was always open, and not just because like Boldin, he was open even if covered, he actually constantly got seperation. The defense may have been allowed to be more physical, but I do not remember Rice getting roughed up or even covered close enough to arm bar or hold him.

    So while Flacco has a very long way to go to get to a Montana level, and there really is no comparison or argument there, it is fair to compare this post season run very favorably to Montana's most dominant run. Flacco was not nearly as dominant, but was so clutch in so many key situations, IMO he gets the nod. I am a Harm City Homer though so you may be right. I did have to alter the OP to make my case.







  3. #18
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    Re: The two greatest post-seasons in NFL history: Joe Montana (1989) vs Joe Flacco (2012). Which was better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Silver View Post
    I can say as a former 49er fans and now current Raven fan and steadfast Joe Flacco backer, you guys are nuts. I watched all those games and Montana was a razor. No need to speak of what the defenses were doing, nor special teams, or lucky get up and runs like Jacoby had, Joe Montana was not just cool, razor sharp, but ridiculously efficient in a time when defenses were allowed inter-fear a great deal more than they are today.

    You are being clear homers if you think Montana is anything but #1 in this instance.
    I did half the work in terms of the field position battle I discussed in my original post.

    For the 2012 Ravens in the post-season: Average starting field position: 26.27 yard line. Out of 49 drives, 5 started inside our own 10 (7 including drives that started ON the 10), and 16 started inside our own 20. Another 8 started at the 20. So that's 24 out of 49, or about 50%, of our drives that started inside or on the 20. We had 5 drives start inside opponent territory, with the farthest downfield being the opponent 37. We had 14 drives start past or own 30 yard line (including the 5 that started in opponent territory). So over 70% of our drives started with 70+ yards to go for a touchdown, and nearly 50% started with 80+ yards to go.

    I post this in response to you, since you watched the 49ers games as a fan back in 1989, and I was curious if you have any insight about starting field position on their drives in that post-season. Or since you were a fan maybe you'd be more interested than I am in doing the research on that.




  4. #19

    Re: The two greatest post-seasons in NFL history: Joe Montana (1989) vs Joe Flacco (2012). Which was better?

    Quote Originally Posted by callahan09 View Post
    I did half the work in terms of the field position battle I discussed in my original post.

    For the 2012 Ravens in the post-season: Average starting field position: 26.27 yard line. Out of 49 drives, 5 started inside our own 10 (7 including drives that started ON the 10), and 16 started inside our own 20. Another 8 started at the 20. So that's 24 out of 49, or about 50%, of our drives that started inside or on the 20. We had 5 drives start inside opponent territory, with the farthest downfield being the opponent 37. We had 14 drives start past or own 30 yard line (including the 5 that started in opponent territory). So over 70% of our drives started with 70+ yards to go for a touchdown, and nearly 50% started with 80+ yards to go.
    Wow...nice work...seen in isolation without comparable info on Montana's starting drive positions, that seems very impressive.




  5. #20
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    Re: The two greatest post-seasons in NFL history: Joe Montana (1989) vs Joe Flacco (2012). Which was better?

    Montana is the clear #1. Its not really even close. You can look for mitigating factors all you want but Montana was near perfect that post season. The 49ers were soul crushingly good. You can't knock Montana's performance because he had a good defense or better receivers.




  6. #21
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    Re: The two greatest post-seasons in NFL history: Joe Montana (1989) vs Joe Flacco (2012). Which was better?

    Quote Originally Posted by somedumbguy View Post
    Montana is the clear #1. Its not really even close. You can look for mitigating factors all you want but Montana was near perfect that post season. The 49ers were soul crushingly good. You can't knock Montana's performance because he had a good defense or better receivers.
    Exactly!

    I am not taking ANYTHING away from Flacco, but Montana was damn near perfect, no ball was under thrown, over thrown, recievers simply closed their hands and the balls were there.

    I ask you callahan09, were you alive when the game was played? Did you watch the entire game recorded somewhere? I did, live. Montana was unbeatable, simply unbeatable. Joe Flacco was great, but myself, many posters, and almost all of anyone of import on any of the major NFL shows will still say Montana was better.




  7. #22
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    Re: The two greatest post-seasons in NFL history: Joe Montana (1989) vs Joe Flacco (2012). Which was better?

    Quote Originally Posted by somedumbguy View Post
    Montana is the clear #1. Its not really even close. You can look for mitigating factors all you want but Montana was near perfect that post season. The 49ers were soul crushingly good. You can't knock Montana's performance because he had a good defense or better receivers.
    No one is knocking his performance. The question is which is the more impressive performance by the QB? Montana, with one of the all-time great teams around him and home field throughout the playoffs, or Flacco, leading a team that lost 4 of 5 going into the playoffs and on the road in 2 of three playoff contests?

    The Niners out-classed everyone they played that off-season. The Ravens were underdogs in every contest save the Irsays, and big underdogs to get to the Super Bowl. I give the nod to Flacco, because the Niners probably would have won the SB that year even if Steve Young (the back-up) had had to start. They probably would have won if third-string Steve Bono had had to start. They were that much of a better team than anyone else in the playoffs that year. If the question were "which was the better team, the 2012 Ravens or the 1989 Niners?" it's an easy answer: the Niners.

    So, on the one hand, you have a QB at the helm of one of the all-time great teams on both sides of the ball, and on the other you have a team with significant holes in all facets of the game. Given that, I think Flacco's performance in this postseason was better than Montana's in getting to that 11 TD 0 INT stat.




  8. #23

    Re: The two greatest post-seasons in NFL history: Joe Montana (1989) vs Joe Flacco (2012). Which was better?

    Quote Originally Posted by somedumbguy View Post
    Montana is the clear #1. Its not really even close. You can look for mitigating factors all you want but Montana was near perfect that post season. The 49ers were soul crushingly good. You can't knock Montana's performance because he had a good defense or better receivers.
    I won't argue that Montana's performance was better....but I think it is worthy of discusssion.

    Both QBs played top 5 defenses...Montana played (and destroyed) MIN and CHI..which were both 1/2 in points and yards...ironically, they struggled to score points versus middling CIN.

    Flacco handily beat below average defenses in IND and NE, but also thrived versus top-5 defenses in DEN and SF.

    The more you look at what Montana did, and the more you look at what Flacco did (such as his starting field position)...the more impressive it gets...for both.

    Someone also brought up a good point about Flacco's performance: Just about every single one of his throws was when the game was competitive.

    I would agree that Montana's performance was probably better....but Flacco's is a worthy debate to have in comparison.




  9. #24
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    Re: The two greatest post-seasons in NFL history: Joe Montana (1989) vs Joe Flacco (2012). Which was better?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    I won't argue that Montana's performance was better....but I think it is worthy of discusssion.

    Both QBs played top 5 defenses...Montana played (and destroyed) MIN and CHI..which were both 1/2 in points and yards...ironically, they struggled to score points versus middling CIN.

    Flacco handily beat below average defenses in IND and NE, but also thrived versus top-5 defenses in DEN and SF.

    The more you look at what Montana did, and the more you look at what Flacco did (such as his starting field position)...the more impressive it gets...for both.

    Someone also brought up a good point about Flacco's performance: Just about every single one of his throws was when the game was competitive.

    I would agree that Montana's performance was probably better....but Flacco's is a worthy debate to have in comparison.
    To simply have the debate proves how good Joe Flacco was. But, like in the Super Bowl and Highlander, there can be only one.




  10. #25
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    Re: The two greatest post-seasons in NFL history: Joe Montana (1989) vs Joe Flacco (2012). Which was better?

    Brady threw 6 touchdowns against Denver in the playoffs last year. Who gives a shit about that?

    Nobody in their right mind did, as it was clear the Broncos were not a good team at all.
    Last edited by PurpleApocalypse37; 02-07-2013 at 12:40 PM.




  11. #26
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    Re: The two greatest post-seasons in NFL history: Joe Montana (1989) vs Joe Flacco (2012). Which was better?

    Quote Originally Posted by bacchys View Post
    No one is knocking his performance. The question is which is the more impressive performance by the QB? Montana, with one of the all-time great teams around him and home field throughout the playoffs, or Flacco, leading a team that lost 4 of 5 going into the playoffs and on the road in 2 of three playoff contests?

    The Niners out-classed everyone they played that off-season. The Ravens were underdogs in every contest save the Irsays, and big underdogs to get to the Super Bowl. I give the nod to Flacco, because the Niners probably would have won the SB that year even if Steve Young (the back-up) had had to start. They probably would have won if third-string Steve Bono had had to start. They were that much of a better team than anyone else in the playoffs that year. If the question were "which was the better team, the 2012 Ravens or the 1989 Niners?" it's an easy answer: the Niners.

    So, on the one hand, you have a QB at the helm of one of the all-time great teams on both sides of the ball, and on the other you have a team with significant holes in all facets of the game. Given that, I think Flacco's performance in this postseason was better than Montana's in getting to that 11 TD 0 INT stat.
    I think Flacco's performance has been amazing. Probably top 5 in post season runs of all time. Did Flacco have to overcome more adversity than Montana to win? Maybe? If overcoming adversity is your standard than maybe Flacco fits into that conversation. I consider that 49ers offense the best of all time. Better than the Vikings of the late 90's, better than the Rams of the late 90's early 2000's and better than the Saints and Patriots of present day. Watching them that year, and particularly in the playoffs was as close to football perfection as I have ever seen. 1a on my list of football perfection is the Ravens Defense in 2000. What Flacco did is impressive, but I just can't raise it to that level of artistry. Putting it closer to home, Is Flacco's playoff run more impressive than Ray Lewis' playoff run in 2000? I mean no disrespect to Joe F., but I have to put Montana on another level.




  12. #27
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    Re: The two greatest post-seasons in NFL history: Joe Montana (1989) vs Joe Flacco (2012). Which was better?

    Quote Originally Posted by somedumbguy View Post
    I think Flacco's performance has been amazing. Probably top 5 in post season runs of all time. Did Flacco have to overcome more adversity than Montana to win? Maybe? If overcoming adversity is your standard than maybe Flacco fits into that conversation. I consider that 49ers offense the best of all time. Better than the Vikings of the late 90's, better than the Rams of the late 90's early 2000's and better than the Saints and Patriots of present day. Watching them that year, and particularly in the playoffs was as close to football perfection as I have ever seen. 1a on my list of football perfection is the Ravens Defense in 2000. What Flacco did is impressive, but I just can't raise it to that level of artistry. Putting it closer to home, Is Flacco's playoff run more impressive than Ray Lewis' playoff run in 2000? I mean no disrespect to Joe F., but I have to put Montana on another level.
    How do you envision Flacco's numbers looking if the Ravens defense played as well as San Fran's defense?




  13. #28
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    Re: The two greatest post-seasons in NFL history: Joe Montana (1989) vs Joe Flacco (2012). Which was better?

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleApocalypse37 View Post
    How do you envision Flacco's numbers looking if the Ravens defense played as well as San Fran's defense?
    Well that's the rub. There is definitely an argument that Flacco had the more difficult task, so putting up numbers like that in the situations he was in make, in my eyes, Flacco's performance a little more remarkable. Yes, I am plenty old enough to remember Montana. The Niners weren't my favorite team at the time, but I did love watching them play. There is also no doubt in my mind that Montana is the GOAT, and probably always will be. The 89 performance was remarkable, it was the best I'd ever seen, until this year, IMO. I just think that being a HUGE underdog, on the road for two of those games, and the big, stunning plays that stand out, in some cases miraculous, I have to believe that Flacco's was the best. Nobody can argue that Flacco didn't have a tougher mountain to climb.

    Honestly, I am getting sick of people saying "you're a homer" or whatever bullshit if you make the argument for Flacco's performance. Fuck off already.




  14. #29

    Re: The two greatest post-seasons in NFL history: Joe Montana (1989) vs Joe Flacco (2012). Which was better?

    Quote Originally Posted by alienrace View Post
    There is definitely an argument that Flacco had the more difficult task, so putting up numbers like that in the situations he was in make, in my eyes, Flacco's performance a little more remarkable.
    In his first 2 games in the playoffs (home vs. MIN and on the road at CHI), Montana destroyed the top 2 defenses in the league...not diminishing what Flacco had to face in Denver and vs. San Francisco...but Montana didn't have a walk in the park, either.




  15. #30
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    Re: The two greatest post-seasons in NFL history: Joe Montana (1989) vs Joe Flacco (2012). Which was better?

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleApocalypse37 View Post
    How do you envision Flacco's numbers looking if the Ravens defense played as well as San Fran's defense?
    About the same. I don't know if this is Joe's fault though. When the Ravens get up they get more conservative on offense. It kills the clock and it wins ball games but it doesn't lead to producing statistics. It is also not about yardage and touchdowns entirely. Improved defense doesn't really make up the difference in completion percentage.




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