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  1. #46
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    Re: Merril Hoge: "Flacco best QB in the NFL"



    The tiered approach is the best way to evaluate QBs, because you can nitpick between them based on the standards you are choosing. Do you want the most accomplished QB, or the one that gives you the best chance to win this year, or the one you would build a franchise around if you were drafting a team from scratch? Joe is not at the top of any of those questions, but if you're looking for a confluence of the three he can be surprisingly high up there.

    Tier 1: Aaron Rodgers

    There's almost no doubt that Rodgers tops the list across the board. He has a Super Bowl ring, a bunch of postseason appearances, amazing regular season stats and plenty of youth left in him. And yet... if Joe Flacco plays under Caldwell next season and looks like he has played this past postseason, if he gets anywhere CLOSE to that, his name will join Rodgers in this rare air.

    Tier 2: The old champs - Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees

    These guys all have at least one ring, several outstanding statistical accomplishments, and are among the threats every year to win another title. If you want one QB for this upcoming season to win a title, any one of these guys is a great choice. But none of them are young; every year there's the risk that their skills will start to degrade and they'll slide out of the NFL like Brett Favre recently did. Long-term, you wouldn't trade Joe Flacco for any of these guys. And when he gets a contract that rivals theirs, just remember that he'll actually see the other side of that contract and still be playing.

    Tier 3: The young champs - Joe Flacco, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger

    The rest of the guys who have rings and are still playing. Eli and Ben have two each; they've outdone Joe in current accomplishments. But by virtue of not putting up the same consistent statistical excellence in the regular season as the four guys above, they get relegated to the next part of the list. However, they're also younger and will be leading their teams longer than the Tier 2 guys. And Joe is the youngest among them by a few years.

    Tier 4: The phenoms - Colin Kaepernick, Robert Griffin III, Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, Cam Newton

    The next breed of NFL quarterback, all of these guys are in their first two years, all of them are cheap on their current contracts (some extremely so), and all of them have high hopes. But you can't put them above the existing champs because they need to prove it for more than just one or two seasons. If you're starting an NFL team from scratch, you could make a case for any of these guys over Flacco, especially if you're getting them at their current prices. But none of them have rings now.

    Tier 5: Still young, still high potential - Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford

    These two are the closest comparables to Flacco, and this is the tier I'd put Flacco in if he didn't just win a title. They have greater statistical prowess in the regular season but their postseason record in both cases is abysmal, and you can argue they're doing it with better receivers (Julio/Roddy/Gonzo, Megatron and Random Guy Opposite Megatron). I wouldn't argue with anyone who believes that these guys can lead championship teams.

    Tier 6: Young non-phenoms - Andy Dalton, Ryan Tannehill, Christian Ponder, Josh Freeman, and potentially others (Brandon Weeden, Jake Locker, Sam Bradford)

    What separates these guys from Tier 4 is that everyone in Tier 4 is constantly described according to their stellar physical gifts and incredibly high ceiling. Most of these guys could, maybe, over time get there... but there's an observable difference between them and the five listed above them. Cincy fans would push Andy Dalton up there, Dolphin fans would argue for Tannehill, and so forth, but I can't elevate any of them into that group.

    Tier 7: Getting older with something missing - Philip Rivers, Tony Romo, Jay Cutler, Alex Smith, Carson Palmer, Michael Vick, Matt Schaub, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Matt Cassel

    Flacco haters, until this postseason, could have shoved him into this category. There's a wider range of talent here... personally I think Jay Cutler could be pushed up into the Ryan/Stafford tier, and who knows what happened to Philip Rivers lately. I'd bet a lot more money on Matt Schaub to win a title than Matt Cassel. But all these guys have seen some NFL success, enough to get more chances, and yet... it just feels like all of them are trending downward for one reason or another. Guys with these QBs leading their franchises are looking around and wondering whether the next guy is right around the corner, whether they could do better with someone else.

    Tier 8: Not much hope left - Kevin Kolb, Blaine Gabbert

    These guys could be in Tier 6 if you're generous, and you can push Tier 6 guys down here at will if you're being stingy. These guys are at risk of being relegated to backup duty next season, or are basically already there.

    Tier 9: Guys who fumble off their own OL's butts - Mark Sanchez

    OMGWTFLOL.




  2. #47

    Re: Merril Hoge: "Flacco best QB in the NFL"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabrosin View Post
    The tiered approach is the best way to evaluate QBs, because you can nitpick between them based on the standards you are choosing. Do you want the most accomplished QB, or the one that gives you the best chance to win this year, or the one you would build a franchise around if you were drafting a team from scratch? Joe is not at the top of any of those questions, but if you're looking for a confluence of the three he can be surprisingly high up there.

    Tier 1: Aaron Rodgers

    There's almost no doubt that Rodgers tops the list across the board. He has a Super Bowl ring, a bunch of postseason appearances, amazing regular season stats and plenty of youth left in him. And yet... if Joe Flacco plays under Caldwell next season and looks like he has played this past postseason, if he gets anywhere CLOSE to that, his name will join Rodgers in this rare air.

    Tier 2: The old champs - Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees

    These guys all have at least one ring, several outstanding statistical accomplishments, and are among the threats every year to win another title. If you want one QB for this upcoming season to win a title, any one of these guys is a great choice. But none of them are young; every year there's the risk that their skills will start to degrade and they'll slide out of the NFL like Brett Favre recently did. Long-term, you wouldn't trade Joe Flacco for any of these guys. And when he gets a contract that rivals theirs, just remember that he'll actually see the other side of that contract and still be playing.

    Tier 3: The young champs - Joe Flacco, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger

    The rest of the guys who have rings and are still playing. Eli and Ben have two each; they've outdone Joe in current accomplishments. But by virtue of not putting up the same consistent statistical excellence in the regular season as the four guys above, they get relegated to the next part of the list. However, they're also younger and will be leading their teams longer than the Tier 2 guys. And Joe is the youngest among them by a few years.

    Tier 4: The phenoms - Colin Kaepernick, Robert Griffin III, Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, Cam Newton

    The next breed of NFL quarterback, all of these guys are in their first two years, all of them are cheap on their current contracts (some extremely so), and all of them have high hopes. But you can't put them above the existing champs because they need to prove it for more than just one or two seasons. If you're starting an NFL team from scratch, you could make a case for any of these guys over Flacco, especially if you're getting them at their current prices. But none of them have rings now.

    Tier 5: Still young, still high potential - Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford

    These two are the closest comparables to Flacco, and this is the tier I'd put Flacco in if he didn't just win a title. They have greater statistical prowess in the regular season but their postseason record in both cases is abysmal, and you can argue they're doing it with better receivers (Julio/Roddy/Gonzo, Megatron and Random Guy Opposite Megatron). I wouldn't argue with anyone who believes that these guys can lead championship teams.

    Tier 6: Young non-phenoms - Andy Dalton, Ryan Tannehill, Christian Ponder, Josh Freeman, and potentially others (Brandon Weeden, Jake Locker, Sam Bradford)

    What separates these guys from Tier 4 is that everyone in Tier 4 is constantly described according to their stellar physical gifts and incredibly high ceiling. Most of these guys could, maybe, over time get there... but there's an observable difference between them and the five listed above them. Cincy fans would push Andy Dalton up there, Dolphin fans would argue for Tannehill, and so forth, but I can't elevate any of them into that group.

    Tier 7: Getting older with something missing - Philip Rivers, Tony Romo, Jay Cutler, Alex Smith, Carson Palmer, Michael Vick, Matt Schaub, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Matt Cassel

    Flacco haters, until this postseason, could have shoved him into this category. There's a wider range of talent here... personally I think Jay Cutler could be pushed up into the Ryan/Stafford tier, and who knows what happened to Philip Rivers lately. I'd bet a lot more money on Matt Schaub to win a title than Matt Cassel. But all these guys have seen some NFL success, enough to get more chances, and yet... it just feels like all of them are trending downward for one reason or another. Guys with these QBs leading their franchises are looking around and wondering whether the next guy is right around the corner, whether they could do better with someone else.

    Tier 8: Not much hope left - Kevin Kolb, Blaine Gabbert

    These guys could be in Tier 6 if you're generous, and you can push Tier 6 guys down here at will if you're being stingy. These guys are at risk of being relegated to backup duty next season, or are basically already there.

    Tier 9: Guys who fumble off their own OL's butts - Mark Sanchez

    OMGWTFLOL.
    I like this list. I may disagree with a few here or there, but you did a nice job categorizing the list. I feel you recognized the fact that qb A. may be more talented than qb B. but his accomplishments or age or whatever seperate the tiers. The list is def. more thought out than the basic tier 123 then whatever is left. I prolly would still do a more traditional tier list i.e. tier one is Rogers, Brady, Peyton, Brees, but I appreciate your take on the list.




  3. #48

    Re: Merril Hoge: "Flacco best QB in the NFL"

    What sets Joe apart is his decision making. I also believe that this whole "we're gonna suck next year" thing is idiotic. Will there be some growing pains with Ray leaving and the D losing some pieces, absolutely. However, this offense, under Caldwell will continue to thrive IMPO and Flacco will thrive. I think the offense has the capability of being top 5 next season.




  4. #49

    Re: Merril Hoge: "Flacco best QB in the NFL"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenous1 View Post
    I do find irony in the fact that Joe tied Montana's record. Flacco like Montana is all about the WINS. If it takes 3200 yds and 24 TD's so be it. If it takes 4200yds and 40 TD's I think he can pull that off to with the right personnel around him. He takes care of the ball and makes smart decisions. Not afraid to take a chance but even when he does, he does it in a way that minimizes the risk.

    I had to laugh at some fans of opposing teams who say Joe just throws the ball up for grabs 50-50 throws. Its only a 50-50 throw if you throwing it to a guy who who is not physical enough to out muscle the CB for the ball. Joe understands his personnel, he gets their strengths and utilizes them. He know a 50-50 ball thrown correctly to Boldin is really a more like a a 80-0-20 if thrown right (80% completion, little INT chance and 20% incomplete). Seeing this understanding of his personnel and the ability to exploit it excites me as much as any of his physical skills do
    Dat luck factor though.

    A lot of people don't understand passes that seem like random coin flips. Also lol at anyone who is realizing only now how good Flacco's arm talent is.




  5. #50

    Re: Merril Hoge: "Flacco best QB in the NFL"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lime in the Coconut View Post
    What sets Joe apart is his decision making. I also believe that this whole "we're gonna suck next year" thing is idiotic. Will there be some growing pains with Ray leaving and the D losing some pieces, absolutely. However, this offense, under Caldwell will continue to thrive IMPO and Flacco will thrive. I think the offense has the capability of being top 5 next season.
    I expect an overall letdown as that's usually the norm--champs rarely repeat.
    However, that's usually true with teams that return largely unchanged; since there's going to be considerable turnover with our roster, on both sides of the ball, there's no telling what might happen next year.
    Of course, that's always true to an extent, but this season is the one with a substantial degree of uncertainty--which has the potential to go either way, good or bad for us.




  6. #51
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    Re: Merril Hoge: "Flacco best QB in the NFL"

    Just for chuckles and a Tim Hasselback(sp?) thread tie-in, I saw Hoge and Timmy on ESPN earlier this evening, where Hoge went through his top 10, for right now, with Flacco leading the list.

    Timmy just about pooped in his diaper. And watching their banter and Timmy's tirade, even SWMBO had to admit that Timmy probably is not just parroting the network "con" line to Hoge's "pro", he looks legitimately and visibly upset that anyone will speak positively about Flacco. Even earlier in the show, you could see him getting his panties in a wad with Hoge and the female host/moderator over Flacco. Timmy's either got a screw or two loose, or there's something going on behind the scenes.




  7. #52

    Re: Merril Hoge: "Flacco best QB in the NFL"

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    That makes no sense. If people can't change their opinion based on new evidence (And Joe's playoff run this season is pretty compelling evidence) then what's the point?

    He thought Flacco was pretty good to average before, and then Flacco did something that only great QBs can do so he thinks he's great. What's the problem.

    Especially amusing in all this is the multipage thread abusing Tim Hasslebeck for NOT changing his mind about Joe.

    Guess some fans are happy to be miserable no matter what the world is saying about us.
    I agree that we should not be upset at people for changing their mind (hell, Flacco went from 12th to 6th in my rankings in the last 5 weeks). I think we all just know that this specific person is a douche with no (professional) integrity. For example, Scott Van Pelt admitted that he was wrong about Flacco, and I'm assuming everyone was fine with it.




  8. #53
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    Re: Merril Hoge: "Flacco best QB in the NFL"

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantoom View Post
    I agree that we should not be upset at people for changing their mind (hell, Flacco went from 12th to 6th in my rankings in the last 5 weeks). I think we all just know that this specific person is a douche with no (professional) integrity. For example, Scott Van Pelt admitted that he was wrong about Flacco, and I'm assuming everyone was fine with it.
    Yep. I'm more than happy if someone says "Hey I was wrong". That's really all I want to hear from the pundits who were dissing Flacco. I don't get why people are getting their panties in a wad over it.




  9. #54
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    Re: Merril Hoge: "Flacco best QB in the NFL"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabrosin View Post
    The tiered approach is the best way to evaluate QBs, because you can nitpick between them based on the standards you are choosing. Do you want the most accomplished QB, or the one that gives you the best chance to win this year, or the one you would build a franchise around if you were drafting a team from scratch? Joe is not at the top of any of those questions, but if you're looking for a confluence of the three he can be surprisingly high up there.

    Tier 4: The phenoms - Colin Kaepernick, Robert Griffin III, Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, Cam Newton

    The next breed of NFL quarterback, all of these guys are in their first two years, all of them are cheap on their current contracts (some extremely so), and all of them have high hopes. But you can't put them above the existing champs because they need to prove it for more than just one or two seasons. If you're starting an NFL team from scratch, you could make a case for any of these guys over Flacco, especially if you're getting them at their current prices. But none of them have rings now.
    I like your system; well thought out.
    Tier 4: A lot of people immediately elevated these guys to a higher tier, but I like where you put them for two main reasons.
    1. Cam's second year sure didn't look like his first, did it? Who is to say whether RGIII and the others will be as exceptional in their future years.
    2. NFL DCs are going to spend the next 6 months developing and practicing strategies to stop the type of offense these "next breed" QBs are running. While it may not die quickly like the Wildcat did, I think it may be relegated to just a part of their offenses, rather than the focus of such. That will especially be true if another gets injured like RGIII did.
    Last edited by JStruds; 02-06-2013 at 09:41 AM. Reason: Wasn't Finished




  10. #55
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    Re: Merril Hoge: "Flacco best QB in the NFL"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabrosin View Post
    The tiered approach is the best way to evaluate QBs, because you can nitpick between them based on the standards you are choosing. Do you want the most accomplished QB, or the one that gives you the best chance to win this year, or the one you would build a franchise around if you were drafting a team from scratch? Joe is not at the top of any of those questions, but if you're looking for a confluence of the three he can be surprisingly high up there.

    Tier 1: Aaron Rodgers

    There's almost no doubt that Rodgers tops the list across the board. He has a Super Bowl ring, a bunch of postseason appearances, amazing regular season stats and plenty of youth left in him. And yet... if Joe Flacco plays under Caldwell next season and looks like he has played this past postseason, if he gets anywhere CLOSE to that, his name will join Rodgers in this rare air.

    Tier 2: The old champs - Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees

    These guys all have at least one ring, several outstanding statistical accomplishments, and are among the threats every year to win another title. If you want one QB for this upcoming season to win a title, any one of these guys is a great choice. But none of them are young; every year there's the risk that their skills will start to degrade and they'll slide out of the NFL like Brett Favre recently did. Long-term, you wouldn't trade Joe Flacco for any of these guys. And when he gets a contract that rivals theirs, just remember that he'll actually see the other side of that contract and still be playing.

    Tier 3: The young champs - Joe Flacco, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger

    The rest of the guys who have rings and are still playing. Eli and Ben have two each; they've outdone Joe in current accomplishments. But by virtue of not putting up the same consistent statistical excellence in the regular season as the four guys above, they get relegated to the next part of the list. However, they're also younger and will be leading their teams longer than the Tier 2 guys. And Joe is the youngest among them by a few years.

    Tier 4: The phenoms - Colin Kaepernick, Robert Griffin III, Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, Cam Newton

    The next breed of NFL quarterback, all of these guys are in their first two years, all of them are cheap on their current contracts (some extremely so), and all of them have high hopes. But you can't put them above the existing champs because they need to prove it for more than just one or two seasons. If you're starting an NFL team from scratch, you could make a case for any of these guys over Flacco, especially if you're getting them at their current prices. But none of them have rings now.

    Tier 5: Still young, still high potential - Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford

    These two are the closest comparables to Flacco, and this is the tier I'd put Flacco in if he didn't just win a title. They have greater statistical prowess in the regular season but their postseason record in both cases is abysmal, and you can argue they're doing it with better receivers (Julio/Roddy/Gonzo, Megatron and Random Guy Opposite Megatron). I wouldn't argue with anyone who believes that these guys can lead championship teams.

    Tier 6: Young non-phenoms - Andy Dalton, Ryan Tannehill, Christian Ponder, Josh Freeman, and potentially others (Brandon Weeden, Jake Locker, Sam Bradford)

    What separates these guys from Tier 4 is that everyone in Tier 4 is constantly described according to their stellar physical gifts and incredibly high ceiling. Most of these guys could, maybe, over time get there... but there's an observable difference between them and the five listed above them. Cincy fans would push Andy Dalton up there, Dolphin fans would argue for Tannehill, and so forth, but I can't elevate any of them into that group.

    Tier 7: Getting older with something missing - Philip Rivers, Tony Romo, Jay Cutler, Alex Smith, Carson Palmer, Michael Vick, Matt Schaub, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Matt Cassel

    Flacco haters, until this postseason, could have shoved him into this category. There's a wider range of talent here... personally I think Jay Cutler could be pushed up into the Ryan/Stafford tier, and who knows what happened to Philip Rivers lately. I'd bet a lot more money on Matt Schaub to win a title than Matt Cassel. But all these guys have seen some NFL success, enough to get more chances, and yet... it just feels like all of them are trending downward for one reason or another. Guys with these QBs leading their franchises are looking around and wondering whether the next guy is right around the corner, whether they could do better with someone else.

    Tier 8: Not much hope left - Kevin Kolb, Blaine Gabbert

    These guys could be in Tier 6 if you're generous, and you can push Tier 6 guys down here at will if you're being stingy. These guys are at risk of being relegated to backup duty next season, or are basically already there.

    Tier 9: Guys who fumble off their own OL's butts - Mark Sanchez

    OMGWTFLOL.
    Think you've pretty much nailed it. Good list; good job.
    "CARPE LOMBARDI"




  11. #56
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    Re: Merril Hoge: "Flacco best QB in the NFL"

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleApocalypse37 View Post
    Matt Ryan has three megatons and nobody holds it against him.
    I do.




  12. #57
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    Re: Merril Hoge: "Flacco best QB in the NFL"

    Here is my list. I agree with Gabrosin's categorization and think that was a nice job, but if I had to give an actual ranking, this is how I'd do it.

    1) Aaron Rodgers
    2) Tom Brady
    3) Peyton Manning
    4) Drew Brees
    5) Ben Roethlisberger
    6) Eli Manning
    7) Joe Flacco (show me more consistency in the regular season next year, Joe, and you're in the top 5, maybe even top 3)
    8) Matt Ryan

    I'm no Ryan fan, but I think #8 is about right for him.

    After those 8, I really don't know how to rank the rest. You have your established vets (Rivers, Romo, Schaub) and a boatload of young, mobile guys with oodles of potential ( Luck, RG3, Wilson, Newton, Kaepernick, Dalton) and also have two former #1 picks (Bradford, Stafford) who are decent QBs too. Then there are still guys like Freeman, Ponder, and Locker who aren't even in the top 1/2 of the QB pool, but still are young, promising players.

    The QB talent in our league right now is through the roof.




  13. #58

    Re: Merril Hoge: "Flacco best QB in the NFL"

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    The QB talent in our league right now is through the roof.
    I agree (and nice, fair ranking). There are a ton of first and second year guys that can vault into the top ten or five as soon as next year.

    Regardless of ranking, no one can take this year, and Joe's performance, away from us!




  14. #59
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    Re: Merril Hoge: "Flacco best QB in the NFL"

    Gabrosin--
    You have done a wonderful thing, IMO, by starting your post with,

    "The tiered approach is the best way to evaluate QBs, because you can nitpick between them based on the standards you are choosing. Do you want the most accomplished QB, or the one that gives you the best chance to win this year, or the one you would build a franchise around if you were drafting a team from scratch? Joe is not at the top of any of those questions, but if you're looking for a confluence of the three he can be surprisingly high up there."

    This type of preamble should be mandatory in the future on any thread that purports to discuss who is the "best" QB. A similarly constructed paragraph should also be requried for any threads on "power rankings; "best or #1" receiver; "best" RB; "best" Head Coach (or OC, or DC); etc. I'd also demand it when "so and so is 'better' than this guy or that" discussions.

    Merci beaucoup!




  15. #60
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    Re: Merril Hoge: "Flacco best QB in the NFL"

    Wow a lot of hating of Hoge for changing his mind. Hoge has trashed Joe and the Ravens for a long time, yes (I've also seen him been complimentary, saying Joe is the best deep ball thrower in the league). But this post season Joe went out and proved his the best QB in the game right now. If Hoge had continued to hate he would be delusional. If anything he's acknowledging what did this post season. A men does have a right to change his mind. Especially when faced with one of the greatest QB post season performances of all time.




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