Ray Lewis PED Allegations (Merged)

[HoustonRaven]

You're still WRONG. The main "effective" ingredient in the spray is PROTEIN.

Your quarrel is with the World Anti Doping Association, not me. They state, and its backed by science, that velvet deer antler contains IGF-1.

It's precisely why it's been banned in international competition for years now.

[NCRAVEN]

Your quarrel is with the World Anti Doping Association, not me. They state, and its backed by science, that velvet deer antler contains IGF-1.

It's precisely why it's been banned in international competition for years now.

Deer antler is not banned by the World Anti Doping Agency... is it...?

[JAB1985]

Your quarrel is with the World Anti Doping Association, not me. They state, and its backed by science, that velvet deer antler contains IGF-1.

It's precisely why it's been banned in international competition for years now.

so milk and salmon are also banned because they have larger amounts of IGF-1, right?

I know its on the banned list, but im not sure how you can regulate a naturally occurring element like that. Clearly, even if it is in this product, its not to the degree that would be different from eating anything else that contains it which isnt banned. the intent of banning it I would assume, is large quantities unnaturally.

[Dirt1]

As said in the videotaped phone call, Ray asks if he rubs it on his elbow, and Ross says "no, spray it under your tongue"

I heard Ed Norris say on the radio this morning that they spoke with a doctor at Johns Hopkins who said that if ingested orally, Ray would have to take in 5,000 bottles of that stuff per day to get the desired effects. Anyone have a link to corroborate Ed Norris's statement?

[B-more Ravor]

The main ingredient in Deer Antler Velvet, allegedly, is IGF-1.

Not according to yet another expert:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business...,3189504.story

[RavenScallywag]

I heard Ed Norris say on the radio this morning that they spoke with a doctor at Johns Hopkins who said that if ingested orally, Ray would have to take in 5,000 bottles of that stuff per day to get the desired effects. Anyone have a link to corroborate Ed Norris's statement?

Not his statement, but I have seen MANY people reference that the amount of IGF in Deer Spray is a small amount. That seems to be the claim of SWATS too, they said it shouldn't be an illegal substance, seems to be one of the big reasons they went public with this story, trying to convince the world that their stuff should be allowed.

[JAB1985]

Everything you need to know about deer antler doping...

doping with deer antlers

So what’s the big deal then? IGF-1 is still a banned substance; even taking 1 nanogram is illegal, even if it does nothing for you. The problem with deer antler velvet is that the amount of IGF-1 is so small that it is nearly impossible to detect in a blood test. Exercising alone can modify IGF-1 levels in the body far greater than taking deer antler velvet. Specifically, IGF-1 levels have been shown to increase by as much as 20% after resistance training for 13 weeks. During, immediately after, and several minutes after exercise, IGF-1 levels can be either higher or lower than during rest

[B-more Ravor]

so milk and salmon are also banned because they have larger amounts of IGF-1, right?

I know its on the banned list, but im not sure how you can regulate a naturally occurring element like that. Clearly, even if it is in this product, its not to the degree that would be different from eating anything else that contains it which isnt banned. the intent of banning it I would assume, is large quantities unnaturally.

That's just the thing - for something that is natural, like IGF-1, there are normal levels of those substances already in your body. So, when they test for them, there are prescribed minimum levels that are allowable.

Based on the 2 stories in The Sun and others around the net, it would apprear that this stuff wouldn't add much to the natural levels, if at all, and likely wouldn't trigger a positive result, even if the NFL did blood testing.

[Boulderraven]

100% total agreement.

Look, I freely admit that I will play the role of contrarian to get a thread going or spark a debate. But this ain't one of those times.

I've been interviewing and interrogating people for almost two decades now. I was / am speaking from the position of someone who has seen the tricks, deceit, rationalizing, etc. Do I want Ray suspended? Of course not. If anyone cares to, they can check my post history and see that Ray has very few supporters as strong as me over the years on these boards. Do I think he got his hand caught in the PED cookie jar? Yes. And it's not so much an indictment on Ray as it is on the culture in pro sports in general. To think there is any athlete that's above reproach when it comes to PED usage is terribly naive.

I am also speaking from the position of the worthiness of the news. It was and continues to be a news worthy story and those calls that this story will / should die down is naive as well. Yes, some outlets are acting in an irresponsible manner but the story itself is something the media can and should report on.

Where I think where we all agree now is the medias job from this point forward. They have a duty now to dig deeper and get to the bottom of this. But that too is a double edged sword. We all may not like what we find.

And to Boulder's comments I will say this one thing. If this was done out of publicity, it's the worst case of trying to gin up publicity that's ever been tried.

Sure, your name is out there now. However, you're not going to endear yourself to your largest, most affluent client base by outing one of the sports biggest stars who is one of your clients. That's entirely counter productive.

These athletes favor discretion, not being touted about as being a client.

The last time we heard "snake oil salesmen" bandied about with this much zeal, the guys name was Victor Conte.

I beleive it was a publicity stunt, a SB ad costs Millions of dollars for a 30 second ad, run just once. Now it will get full blown attention. I seriously doubt PRO atheletes make the most of his percentage of sales. He just struck the common marketplace, which is 100000000x's larger. He will get to countless everyday people, (gymrats, meatheads, people with arthritic conditions and people in need of some tissue and muscle repair looking into his product. He just made a mint of $, he wont have enough to fill demand now. Total publicity stunt, think about it from a marketing perspective? Cant believe a few media outlets, ESPN, SI ran the story without doing thier doing thier homework. It puts a tiny tarnish on Ray's career and comeback. If I were RL I would be so pissed, and would not give this clown a moment of media recognition either. To train hard and put in all the work it requires to make it at his level for it to be attacked by some non-credible source with no "actual evidence and only based on a his word" is absurd. I bet Ray's attorney's will go after him AFTER the season is concluded. Just like the shakeweight works? But it sells reguardless. Guy just trying to make a quick buck the sleazey way.

[Ravenswintitle]

I'm telling you, when this story came out a couple years ago, I immediately ordered some deer antler velvet from SWATS and started using it to measure the effects in the gym. I used the whole bottle and couldn't tell anything. It's snakeoil.

[HoustonRaven]

Not according to yet another expert:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business...,3189504.story

WADA and USADA clearly disagree.

[dreamjo]

Your quarrel is with the World Anti Doping Association, not me. They state, and its backed by science, that velvet deer antler contains IGF-1.

It's precisely why it's been banned in international competition for years now.

From "main ingredient" to "main effectice ingredient" to simply "contains". I think this is where his quarrel is.