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  1. #76

    Re: Mike Carey (w Hochuili Bonus) to Ref Our Game



    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    They showed the replay ad naseum in the stadium.

    50 was on top of it and Yanda came in. Once Yanda touched him, it was Colts ball.

    Can someone post a clip? They must have shown that replay four times and there was little doubt amongst the fans.
    It looked to us from the sideline camera that it was being juggled by #50 when Yanda came in. It wasn't like the Colt defender covered the ball up.




  2. #77

    Re: Mike Carey (w Hochuili Bonus) to Ref Our Game

    Don't worry, two authors on that site expect him to officiate an even more important game (one thinks divisional round, other thinks conference championship):
    http://www.footballzebras.com/2013/01/02/6119/




  3. #78

    Re: Mike Carey (w Hochuili Bonus) to Ref Our Game

    BTW, here is the defenseless receiver rule:

    http://nflcommunications.com/2011/12...seless-player/

    And the reason this call, like some of the others is bad is this:

    (1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; and

    (2) Lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/”hairline” parts of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body.

    Note: The provisions of (2) do not prohibit incidental contact by the mask or helmet in the course of a conventional tackle on an opponent.
    Pollard did not violate either rule. He did not forcibly hit his neck or head with his helmet. That contact came because the receiver's head reacted to his body getting hit by Pollard's shoulder. Nor did Pollard lower his head and hit the receiver with either the crown or forehead part of his helmet.

    This penalty was a judgment call by the official, and the wrong one.

    I will add only this. I think next year, whoever is coaching defense needs to stress player wrapping their arms around the player instead of just shouldering them. That way the provision of a "conventional" tackle negates all this bullshit.

    But Pollard's hit was clean, legal, and should not have been called.




  4. #79
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    Re: Mike Carey (w Hochuili Bonus) to Ref Our Game

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    They showed the replay ad naseum in the stadium.

    50 was on top of it and Yanda came in. Once Yanda touched him, it was Colts ball.

    Can someone post a clip? They must have shown that replay four times and there was little doubt amongst the fans.
    You don't always have to be politically correct. Just saying...

    I had the same view as you from the stadium and Carey sucked ass today. you can say it...nothing will happen.
    "What would you give for the man beside you?"




  5. #80

    Re: Mike Carey (w Hochuili Bonus) to Ref Our Game

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    BTW, here is the defenseless receiver rule:

    http://nflcommunications.com/2011/12...seless-player/

    And the reason this call, like some of the others is bad is this:



    Pollard did not violate either rule. He did not forcibly hit his neck or head with his helmet. That contact came because the receiver's head reacted to his body getting hit by Pollard's shoulder. Nor did Pollard lower his head and hit the receiver with either the crown or forehead part of his helmet.

    This penalty was a judgment call by the official, and the wrong one.

    I will add only this. I think next year, whoever is coaching defense needs to stress player wrapping their arms around the player instead of just shouldering them. That way the provision of a "conventional" tackle negates all this bullshit.

    But Pollard's hit was clean, legal, and should not have been called.
    The "conventional tackle" exception only applies to rule 2, not rule 1.

    So, even if Pollard had wrapped his arms around the guy, they could still flag him as he "broke" rule 1, not rule 2.**

    **technically, as he didn't forcibly hit the WR's head, he shouldn't have been flagged whether he wraps him up or not, because he didn't break rule 1 either, as Stinger pointed out




  6. #81

    Re: Mike Carey (w Hochuili Bonus) to Ref Our Game

    The reason why Carey was awful today is because he wanted the Colts to cover the spread.




  7. #82

    Re: Mike Carey (w Hochuili Bonus) to Ref Our Game

    Here is the only clip I could find of the non-recovery, as well as one writer's opinion.http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-sh...2415--nfl.html




  8. #83
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    Re: Mike Carey (w Hochuili Bonus) to Ref Our Game

    some pretty questionable calls today; glad it didn't come back to haunt us
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  9. #84

    Re: Mike Carey (w Hochuili Bonus) to Ref Our Game

    What the hell?

    If there is a full collision, it is a forcible hit to the head. With the violence of that collision any part of his upper body hitting Wayne is going to be forcible.

    You are arguing intention.

    Intention doesn't matter.

    When he launched into Wayne, his helmet hit Wayne's.

    He will in all likelyhood be fined and even Pollard knows it and said so to a reporter.

    Why do you constantly hear defensive players complaining about offensive guys lowering their heads when getting fined?

    It's because the league made that rule so that none of that other "intent" or "mistake" stuff is taken into account and they completely remove the "judgemental" stuff out of the officials hands.

    No defenseless receiver personal foul is a judgement call. Either the ref sees contact to the head or he doesn't. The only way the ref would have been wrong in this case is if no part of Pollard's body hit Wayne in the head.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  10. #85

    Re: Mike Carey (w Hochuili Bonus) to Ref Our Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    What the hell?
    The hell here is that you are incorrect on this one, with all due respect my friend. That is what the hell.

    If there is a full collision, it is a forcible hit to the head. With the violence of that collision any part of his upper body hitting Wayne is going to be forcible.

    You are arguing intention.

    Intention doesn't matter.

    When he launched into Wayne, his helmet hit Wayne's.
    No. Wrong. The collision with his helmet came as Wayne's head reacted to his body being hit. Once again, that is outside of the rule AS IT IS STATED. Pollard did NOT "make forcible contact to the head or neck of the receiver" as I posted the rule from the NFL.

    He also did not "launch" into Wayne. If he had launched into him, he would have put his head down or left the ground. THAT would have been a justifiable call.

    He will in all likelyhood be fined and even Pollard knows it and said so to a reporter.
    Pollard also said he believed the hit was legal. He isn't saying he agrees with the fine, nor did he or Reed agree with the flag.

    Why do you constantly hear defensive players complaining about offensive guys lowering their heads when getting fined?

    It's because the league made that rule so that none of that other "intent" or "mistake" stuff is taken into account and they completely remove the "judgemental" stuff out of the officials hands.

    No defenseless receiver personal foul is a judgement call. Either the ref sees contact to the head or he doesn't. The only way the ref would have been wrong in this case is if no part of Pollard's body hit Wayne in the head.
    Yes it is. In this instance it is ABSOLUTELY a judgment call, and there is nothing you can tell me or show me in the rule that I quoted from the official NFL Communications site to prove otherwise. In fact, if that play was reviewable, the penalty would have been taken back.

    RIW, I understand the flags for when a player cracks another player with his helmet. Those are plays that result in concussions, and I get that. THIS PLAY was not that play. And the refs made a call based on how they FELT about the hit, and it was the wrong call.




  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    What the hell?

    If there is a full collision, it is a forcible hit to the head. With the violence of that collision any part of his upper body hitting Wayne is going to be forcible.

    You are arguing intention.

    Intention doesn't matter.

    When he launched into Wayne, his helmet hit Wayne's.

    He will in all likelyhood be fined and even Pollard knows it and said so to a reporter.

    Why do you constantly hear defensive players complaining about offensive guys lowering their heads when getting fined?

    It's because the league made that rule so that none of that other "intent" or "mistake" stuff is taken into account and they completely remove the "judgemental" stuff out of the officials hands.

    No defenseless receiver personal foul is a judgement call. Either the ref sees contact to the head or he doesn't. The only way the ref would have been wrong in this case is if no part of Pollard's body hit Wayne in the head.
    This.

    And folks are getting too hung up on the word forcible. It's been called time and time again. Helmet to helmet contact is always going to draw the flag.

    That's the rule and its been that way for, what, six seasons now?

    And just got done watching the Rice fumble replay. Still don't see whee Yanda had possession other than after the play was dead.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  12. #87
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    Re: Mike Carey (w Hochuili Bonus) to Ref Our Game

    Quote Originally Posted by brown2RAVEN View Post
    Here is the only clip I could find of the non-recovery, as well as one writer's opinion.http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-sh...2415--nfl.html
    The low-level CBS view clearly shows that #50 for the Colts never had the ball and Yanda recovered it. No matter what it looked like from other angles, that one is quite definitive.




  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by alien bird View Post
    The low-level CBS view clearly shows that #50 for the Colts never had the ball and Yanda recovered it. No matter what it looked like from other angles, that one is quite definitive.
    Thanks. Can't view it on the plane but will look later.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  14. #89

    Re: Mike Carey (w Hochuili Bonus) to Ref Our Game

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    The hell here is that you are incorrect on this one, with all due respect my friend. That is what the hell.



    No. Wrong. The collision with his helmet came as Wayne's head reacted to his body being hit. Once again, that is outside of the rule AS IT IS STATED. Pollard did NOT "make forcible contact to the head or neck of the receiver" as I posted the rule from the NFL.

    He also did not "launch" into Wayne. If he had launched into him, he would have put his head down or left the ground. THAT would have been a justifiable call.



    Pollard also said he believed the hit was legal. He isn't saying he agrees with the fine, nor did he or Reed agree with the flag.



    Yes it is. In this instance it is ABSOLUTELY a judgment call, and there is nothing you can tell me or show me in the rule that I quoted from the official NFL Communications site to prove otherwise. In fact, if that play was reviewable, the penalty would have been taken back.

    RIW, I understand the flags for when a player cracks another player with his helmet. Those are plays that result in concussions, and I get that. THIS PLAY was not that play. And the refs made a call based on how they FELT about the hit, and it was the wrong call.
    Dude, he is going to get fined and he does then it will show that it was a legit call.

    Every single fan, coach, player, nfl employee knows that the bottom line is that if a defenseless player is hit in the head, it's illegal.

    Period.

    Point blank.

    All that forcible and intent nonsense you seem to be stuck on does not matter.

    Ask Ed Reed.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  15. #90
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    Re: Mike Carey (w Hochuili Bonus) to Ref Our Game

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Thanks. Can't view it on the plane but will look later.
    It's the only view that shows what actually happened, and it also appears that no official had that view. If you watch, you'll see #50 fall on the ball and it immediately squirts out past the top of his helmet. That's when Yanda dives in and swallows it up. The commentary on TV (Phil Simms) pointed out that the Ravens recovered it, too, after looking at that view.

    What I don't understand is why that isn't a reviewable play. At least that's what they seemed to say on TV.




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