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  1. #37
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    Re: Average at best draft?



    Quote Originally Posted by Bhcforlife View Post
    The problem isn't the Patriots, it's Ozzie's unwillingness to trade up. They could have had Dez Bryant if Ozzie had been willing to part with a later pick in that draft to move up two or three spots. Same can be said for Gronkowski and this year they sat in their spot while guys like Hightower, Zeitler, Mercilus, and DeCastro all went in the five spots directly before their pick.

    .
    I agree, I was actually about the right the part about not trading up enough, but I deleted the paragrah I had written about it and posted about the Patriots instead. I think that one of the things that made me change my mind is that many of the players that looked like steals that we could have gotten this year haven't panned out that well. It's also ironic that the one time in recent history that we did trade up for a guy was Oher, and that hasn't been too promising.

    A silvering lining on the Patriots, as of now, they only have a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and two 7ths. Hopefully they won't get a lot help from comp picks, but as of now, they don't have a whole lot of ammuniation to trade up, and will be picking so late that they won't be attractive suitors to track back that much.




  2. #38
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    Re: Average at best draft?

    Ditto on the great thread.

    I just read the article before coming in here and wondered what the writer was smoking. He must have
    missed all those guys breezing past KO on the way to creaming Joe. Another guy playing out of position, he's
    more suited for Guard where he played. He might be
    good but wasn't this year.

    Much has been posted and written about Upshaw doing well his rookie year. He almost won the Philly game chasing Vick out of the pocket forcing an INT and had several big games. He has great upside to him.

    Pierce has done well giving Ray a breather with a big game last week and huge gainer.

    It takes a couple of years to grade a draft but Upshaw
    and Pierce will be even better in couple of years and maybe KO too if they move him back to LG.

    I'd say it's better than average.
    UBER RAVENS FAN AND HISTORIAN GURU.




  3. #39
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    Re: Average at best draft?

    We can play the "what if" game forever and I'm not sure it really ever proves much. I wrote a three-part offseason piece chronicling some of Ozzie's moves that were genius vs. dumb, and included a lot of near misses that could have helped or hurt the team had they worked out the way he wanted. It's fun to speculate but in then end sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

    We can talk about some of these players who might have been, but you always have to factor in the thinking at the time. I'm still not convinced I want Bryant on my team for instance. I can recall Gronkowski falling in the draft because of injury concerns. He missed his entire junior season at Arizona after having back surgery and the Ravens by some reports had taken him off their board entirely because of it.

    In retrospect they were wrong about Gronkowski, and wrong about taking Kindle one pick later with the 43rd pick, but I understand the circumstances, which includes a shit ton of tight ends in that class, and I loved the Pitta pick from day one. I think he's a damn good value in the fourth round.

    So I can accept why they didn't gamble on Gronkowski -- and to be fair to them, they probably would have had to use pick #25 on him if they were convinced his back wasn't an issue. It's really not reasonable to ask them to trade back to #43 that year, and then also anticipate that they needed to trade back up to get Gronkowski before New England jumped up for him at 42. And I accept that they knew they had other TE options who were cheaper in later rounds in 2010.

    Sure, we can talk about wanting them to leap frog teams more often to move up to get players. Sometimes it works great -- Flacco, Pierce, Yanda.

    More commonly I think, they would have been better off not trading up for targeted players because these players who they "just had to have" often disappoint -- Jah Reid, Adam Terry, Michael Oher, Kyle Boller, DeRon Jenkins, and Anthony Weaver, for instance.

    What I'm saying is that it makes no sense to broadly ask them to trade up more often. Really, what you're asking for is that they broadly have a more accurate crystal ball so they know when it pays to trade up for a guy, or stay put, or move back.

    When they trade down, or send away a pick for future considerations, they usually end up getting no more than one good player out of the package deal -- good talent like Courtney Upshaw, Jamal Lewis, Dennis Pitta, Anquan Boldin, Art Jones, Ray Rice, Ray Lewis.

    But often when you look at the "extra picks" they also got in these package deals-- and sometimes even when you look at the entire package of picks -- you realize they don't typical yield a whole lot of extra value for the Ravens.

    We're talking about players they've gotten this way like, Tavares Gooden, Gino Gradkowski, Ed Dickson, Tom Zbikowski, Chris Chester, Yamon Figurs, David Pittman, Scott Mitchell, Kevin Johnson -- these are the type of players who have ended up being the proverbial "player to be named later" in these deals, and some of these guys are the main guy they got from traded-away picks.

    In other words, they almost never get two for the price of one. They really don't cheat the system. On draft day we talk about Ozzie being a genius for re-acquiring picks, or loading up on extra picks. But when you actually look at the track record they have not done much with the bounties they received.

    Whether it made sense to trade back, therefore, comes down to whether they correctly determined that the value where they were originally were picking just wasn't there. It comes down to having a good crystal ball. Which is really just a metaphor for good scouting.

    When you look at it, their best moves are the ones where they didn't move up or down. They stood pat and trusted their scouting. Or had enough luck that a player they liked in a spot was still left on the board.




  4. #40
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    Re: Average at best draft?

    Actually, I meant to amend my "cheating the system" statement to say that there is one type of sleight of hand that Ozzie has been successful with, but he hasn't employed it in recent years. His (ostensible) former boss in Cleveland Bill Belichick perfected it. I'm talking about trading a pick for higher pick in a future year.

    The Ravens got Ray Lewis that way in 1996. In the 1995 draft they (Belichick) sent Eric Metcalf to the Falcons so they could move from 26 to 10. They then traded with the 49rs to move back down from #10 to #30, also getting the 49rs first round pick in 1996 (used on Ray) and some additional picks.

    All that moving around and Ray was the one piece of value they got for essentially trading 1995's pick 26 for 1996's pick 26.

    Ozzie later sent a 1999 second round pick to Atlanta for what became the 5th overall pick in 2000--Jamal Lewis.

    When the Ravens acquired the 19th overall pick in 2003 to get Kyle Boller, they traded away a first round pick in 2004 that Belichick turned into Vince Wilfork. Belichick won that deal by being patient enough to acquire a pick in a future draft.

    This is the one type of trade I'd like to see the Ravens attempt more often. When I hear DeCosta say that they kept losing out on players they liked in the 2012 draft it does make me think that this is the perfect scenario for trading away a pick for a higher pick in 2013. While Osemele is a nice player, the pick they used for him just might have become a star player in the first round of the 2013 draft. From that perspective, I agree with Kris that 2012 was an average draft compared to what above-average is really all about.




  5. #41

    Re: Average at best draft?

    Can't take any serious declaration of this draft seriously.

    It hasn't even been a full season yet.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  6. #42
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    Re: Average at best draft?

    Everyone knows how I felt about Nicks, the big SB hero last year. He wasn't even on the Ravens radar. Dee said there was no one they liked at WR in that draft except Robiskie-sp drafted by the Browns at top of 2d round and he's a big bust and out of football, I think. Dee didn't like Kenny Britt either who bit Ozzie in the ass last year in Tenn when he beat us with a TD. That was one of the 3 losses along with the Seattle and Jags lost that kept us from having the home field advantage vs NE. Any one of those wins gives us the home field.

    As for Gronk, Bellicheat took a big risk on him. He missed a lot of time to back injuries. He knew Ozzie needed a TE and jumped in front to grab Gronk because he was afraid Oz would draft him. Remember all the confusion going on and Goodell had to go down and tell NE to hurry it up? Like Nicks, he wasn't even on his radar opting for Pitta and Dickson, two very good TEs but not as great as Gronk. Bellicheat had no reason to worry about losing Gronk
    to Oz.

    The TE drafted by the Saints was the guy Oz really missed on in that draft and was on the board just like Roddy White was on the board and Mike Wallace and so many others. Oz still has more hits than misses and someone posted a stat a few years ago that Oz had more players still playing than any other GM.

    And speaking of an average draft, how about Tucker? He wasn't drafted but
    he's a big part of the rookie class and many think he should have made the pro bowl so that makes this class and draft even stronger than average.
    He's one of Ozzie's best signings.

    The Michael Oher draft is the one that still upsets me and another guy they have playing out of position.

    QUESTION: Does anyone think Yanda could play Center when Birk retires? I know it's the pros but what's so difficult about teaching a pro like Yanda how to snap. We're not talking long
    snappers here. I did it at my lowly level. It's really not that
    difficult.

    Then we move Oher back to RT and KO to LG and McKinnie at LT until we draft someone and put Gino at RG.

    I'm just asking.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 12-30-2012 at 01:34 PM.
    UBER RAVENS FAN AND HISTORIAN GURU.




  7. #43
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    Re: Average at best draft?

    And speaking of Pierce, what a great game he is having today.

    He's so explosive. Another great Ozzie find from little Temple.

    And Gino is playing well today opening up big holes up the middle.
    As someone posted on the game thread:
    ________________________________
    I went back and watched the last two offensive series to see how Gradkowski was holding up. He has held his own against Atkins on running plays and has been stronger than the backup guards on passing plays. He did not look weak
    __________________________________

    so there's a lot of upside to this draft making it above average.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 12-30-2012 at 02:54 PM.
    UBER RAVENS FAN AND HISTORIAN GURU.




  8. #44
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    Re: Average at best draft?

    *would be awesome of Gino can become an NFL center. didn't see the game, heard he did well.
    *Chykie Brown seems to have been a good investment.
    *that 04 draft was a huge stinker. was that that personnel guy that went to the Bronws? (DeCosta?)
    *Belicheat hasn't drafted his next qb yet. Brady is 36 so he'd better get somebody ready. (fine with me if they both retire and leave a qb-less team up there)
    in '08 we had to draft Rice because Pigsburgh had already taken Limas Sweed! (drat!)
    Baltimore Ravens, 2012 NFL Champions!




  9. #45
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    Re: Average at best draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by sailorsam View Post
    *Belicheat hasn't drafted his next qb yet. Brady is 36 so he'd better get somebody ready. (fine with me if they both retire and leave a qb-less team up there)
    Their back up is Ryan Mallett, a 3rd round guy who had a pretty good career at Arkansas. A lot of people felt he might be able to start in the league, though who knows if he is any good.




  10. #46
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    Re: Average at best draft?

    Quote Originally Posted by sailorsam View Post
    *would be awesome of Gino can become an NFL center. didn't see the game, heard he did well.
    *Chykie Brown seems to have been a good investment.
    *that 04 draft was a huge stinker. was that that personnel guy that went to the Bronws? (DeCosta?)
    DeCosta has never left the Ravens although half the NFL teams have tried to lure him away. He's waiting for Ozzie to retire and making about as much as most GMs anyway. That's what it took for Bisciotti to keep him.

    Phil Savage left to become the Browns GM and was fired and then DeCosta's
    assistant left to become Browns GM and he was fired too but Ravens brought
    him back. I can't think of his name.

    Ravens were high on Mallett.

    Ravens took Rice because CAM wanted two RBs to get thru an NFL season.

    NE wanted Rice too but their GM who is now KCs GM and Ozzie's assist during
    SB 35 called after the draft and said they were surprised we took Rice since
    we had McGahee. Ozzie said CAM wanted two good RBs. So everyone give
    a big thank U to CAM. Rice would have gone to NE. BTW, NE was high
    on Bernard Pierce this year. So was Pissburgh. Both teams also liked Gino.

    That's why Bellicheat jumped in front of Ozzie to get Gronk. Like posted he
    knew we needed a TE and was scared to death Oz would steal Gronk like he
    did Rice.
    UBER RAVENS FAN AND HISTORIAN GURU.




  11. #47
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    Re: Average at best draft?

    okay, I was thinking of Savage, not DeCosta. I think he was behind the '04 draft.
    Baltimore Ravens, 2012 NFL Champions!




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