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Thread: Joe 'Manned Up'

  1. #97

    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'



    Quote Originally Posted by redmike34 View Post
    Again, someone please explain to me what the metric is for a QB outplaying his opponent while losing the game.
    It's both.

    Wins AND stats.

    So, if a QB is lacking in one or the other, then you analyze why.

    With Flacco, he has the wins, but his stats have been 'meh'

    And the consensus by the majority of Ravens fans and media experts (the experts who actually do know about QBs) is that Flacco's stats have been mediocre because of:

    1) Cam Cameron/scheme/play-calling/lack of timely proper adjustments/etc.
    2) The O-Line when the starters get hurt (which unfortunately has happened 3 seasons now)
    3) Flacco and the receivers both not being consistent enough (basically a tie here)

    In that order.
    So, the consensus among us "Flacco lovers" has been, get rid of Cam (done...YES!) and add more/better depth to the O-line...because Mark LeVoir, Bryan Mattison, Oneil Freakin' Cousins, and ready-to-retire Andre Gurode & Bobby Williams, ain't going to get the job done--they're not even replacement level backups.

    And then we can all finally make a more accurate assessment of both Joe and the receiving corps.




  2. #98
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Thank you. Well said.
    I like Joe Flacco, however his mistakes have led to measurable consequences.
    Winning and losing are team efforts; I never said otherwise. Joe has turned the ball over, especially in momentum changing situations, when all he had to do was nothing other than not make a mistake, Denver on the 4 yard line a perfect example.




  3. #99

    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by PerpetuallyBored74 View Post
    It's both.

    Wins AND stats.

    So, if a QB is lacking in one or the other, then you analyze why.

    With Flacco, he has the wins, but his stats have been 'meh'

    And the consensus by the majority of Ravens fans and media experts (the experts who actually do know about QBs) is that Flacco's stats have been mediocre because of:

    1) Cam Cameron/scheme/play-calling/lack of timely proper adjustments/etc.
    2) The O-Line when the starters get hurt (which unfortunately has happened 3 seasons now)
    3) Flacco and the receivers both not being consistent enough (basically a tie here)

    In that order.
    So, the consensus among us "Flacco lovers" has been, get rid of Cam (done...YES!) and add more/better depth to the O-line...because Mark LeVoir, Bryan Mattison, Oneil Freakin' Cousins, and ready-to-retire Andre Gurode & Bobby Williams, ain't going to get the job done--they're not even replacement level backups.

    And then we can all finally make a more accurate assessment of both Joe and the receiving corps.
    That doesn't really answer my question, which was, for an individual game, how do you quantify how a losing QB outplayed the winning one in defeat? Because that's at the root of what I believe is the incorrect belief that Flacco outplayed Brady in the AFCCG.

    For the rest... okay. You well may be correct. We'll probably see starting next year. For the sake of the Ravens, and their chances to keep up winning ways and playoff runs, I sincerely hope that I'm wrong and that you (and the other "lovers") are right.




  4. #100
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by DonNMass View Post
    Thank you. Well said.
    I like Joe Flacco, however his mistakes have led to measurable consequences.
    Winning and losing are team efforts; I never said otherwise. Joe has turned the ball over, especially in momentum changing situations, when all he had to do was nothing other than not make a mistake, Denver on the 4 yard line a perfect example.
    In his career Joe has never had a season with more than 12 picks, to claim that "Joe has turned the ball over" as if he's doing it at a rate that meets or even exceeds the average, is simply wrong.

    Joe has 109 TDs, 56 picks, and 18 lost fumbles. Meaning he has 1.45 scores for every turnover.

    Matt Ryan has 131 TDs, plus 80 picks, and 11 lost fumbles. 1.43 scores per turnover.

    Ben Roethlisberger has 202 TDs, plus 108 picks, and 29 lost fumbles. 1.47 scores per turnover.

    If you think Joe is turning the ball over more than other QBs, you're wrong. If you think he's scoring less points per turnover, you're wrong. If you think he's winning fewer games, you're wrong.

    Basically everything you've said about Joe has been inaccurate, or grossly exaggerated.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  5. #101
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by redmike34 View Post
    That doesn't really answer my question, which was, for an individual game, how do you quantify how a losing QB outplayed the winning one in defeat? Because that's at the root of what I believe is the incorrect belief that Flacco outplayed Brady in the AFCCG.

    For the rest... okay. You well may be correct. We'll probably see starting next year. For the sake of the Ravens, and their chances to keep up winning ways and playoff runs, I sincerely hope that I'm wrong and that you (and the other "lovers") are right.
    QB A throws for 400 yards, 3 TDs, no picks.

    QB B throws for 183 yards, 0 TDs, and 3 picks.

    Final score- QB A's team scores 21, QB B's teams scores 28.

    Which QB played better?

    Was that fucking hard to figure out?

    Now narrow the performance gap and you have Joe vs. Brady. Joe scored more TDs, had more yards, and fewer turnovers. Thus he played better than Brady. Brady's team won however, because there are more than just two guys on the field at once.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  6. #102
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    QB A throws for 400 yards, 3 TDs, no picks.

    QB B throws for 183 yards, 0 TDs, and 3 picks.

    Final score- QB A's team scores 21, QB B's teams scores 28.

    Which QB played better?

    Was that fucking hard to figure out?

    Now narrow the performance gap and you have Joe vs. Brady. Joe scored more TDs, had more yards, and fewer turnovers. Thus he played better than Brady. Brady's team won however, because there are more than just two guys on the field at once.
    So, you are basing your opinion of a QB based on stats, and not wins and losses? I generally agree with that approach. Keep in mind that Flacco ranks anywhere between 14 and 23 among QBs in the league based on the stats that QBs are judged by.




  7. #103

    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by JMUpurkfool View Post
    Ben R. - 8 yr, 102 million signed in 08
    Eli Manning - 7 yr, 106 million signed in 09
    Phillip Rivers - 7 yr, 98 million signed in 09

    Joe and Matt have had a very similar career to each of these QB's up to the point of them signing these contracts. These were all signed 3-4 years ago. [B]They are not being overpaid, they will be getting what the market dictates.[/B]
    But are they manly men on pay day, with a firm handshake and a look straight in the eye? That's more what OP was lauding Joe for: taking responsibility for a 3 game brain-fart by the offense and not pointing fingers/making excuses. Then delivering the goods vs. NYG. But do carry on everyone. The thread is most entertaining!!




  8. #104

    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    QB A throws for 400 yards, 3 TDs, no picks.

    QB B throws for 183 yards, 0 TDs, and 3 picks.

    Final score- QB A's team scores 21, QB B's teams scores 28.

    Which QB played better?

    Was that fucking hard to figure out?

    Now narrow the performance gap and you have Joe vs. Brady. Joe scored more TDs, had more yards, and fewer turnovers. Thus he played better than Brady. Brady's team won however, because there are more than just two guys on the field at once.
    Haha--okay. Find me a statline from a REAL game in which that happened (and none of the winning team's scores were from defense/special teams), and I'll buy it.

    Else, again, Brady got 23 points out of his offense, and Flacco got 20 points out of his. Brady also managed to get his offense to score those points against the best pass defense in the league last year (by defensive passer rating), while Flacco got his offense to score those points against the 21st pass defense in the league (again by defensive passer rating).

    More yards by Flacco? Sure, against what was certainly the easier defense to pass against. More TDs? Sure--though it's worth noting that the Ravens allowed only 11 passing TDs last year, by FAR the fewest in the league (the Jets and Steelers were second, allowing 15 each--in other words, 36% more). It actually is very impressive that Flacco didn't throw any picks--the Pats were tied for second in the league last year in interceptions--but that's literally the ONLY thing they were any good at in terms of pass defense.

    Bottom line is, Brady had a much tougher job that day than Flacco did, and while it wasn't pretty by any means, he did enough to win. Which is why his team won, and also why arguing about whether or not he was outplayed is sour grapes at best and delusional at worst.




  9. #105

    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    So, you are basing your opinion of a QB based on stats, and not wins and losses? I generally agree with that approach. Keep in mind that Flacco ranks anywhere between 14 and 23 among QBs in the league based on the stats that QBs are judged by.
    Statistics are nothing more than an attempt to describe real world events with symbols that are easily manipulated and digested. Statistics are most useful when you're talking about a large sample or a broad swath of events.

    Instead of being reliant on them to describe a single game, why not just watch the game? How many good throws did Flacco make? How many bad throws did Flacco make? How many "action plays" did he contribute to moving the ball, scoring, and protecting that score?

    Then compare his "positive action plays" with Brady's "positive action plays." Flacco had more of them--more good throws, less bad throws, etc. All you have to do is watch the game to figure that out.

    The thing is, when a player makes a lot of good plays, his contribution increases the team's chance of winning--and that's what it's all about in the end. But you can't just jump straight to "did the team win or lose" because he's not the only player whose performance affects the win/loss probability. We have to isolate how much a given player and his subset of plays affects that probability. Most typical statistics like passer rating and ESPN's QBR make no attempt to evaluate game action based on how much it actually contributes to the percentage of winning.




  10. #106
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    So, you are basing your opinion of a QB based on stats, and not wins and losses? I generally agree with that approach. Keep in mind that Flacco ranks anywhere between 14 and 23 among QBs in the league based on the stats that QBs are judged by.
    No I base it on a combination of factors including stats, supporting cast, game plan, contributions in the clutch, and wins and losses. I was using the exagerated example to show that a QB can outplay his opposite number and lose. As for where Flacco ranks, raw stats are nice, but context is important.

    Example. When judging total number of TDs and yards he's thrown, how can you account for the MASSIVE (led the league) number of plus 50 yard pass interference calls he and Torrey have generated in the last two years? Those calls sucked yards and TDs off Joe's stat sheet and put the ball on the one where we rightfully handed it off to Ray, Leach, Ricky, or Joe himself. In the stat sheet Joe will get credit for nothing, but in reality his ability to place a ball deep down the field, and Torrey's ability to force defenders to mug him or be left in the dust, directly led to a TD that only a running back will get credit for. I've watched it happen enough to know that stats are only meaningful in context, and in context, Joe's are more than adequate to convince me that he's definitely a franchise QB, and potentially a great one.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  11. #107
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Statistics are nothing more than an attempt to describe real world events with symbols that are easily manipulated and digested. Statistics are most useful when you're talking about a large sample or a broad swath of events.

    Instead of being reliant on them to describe a single game, why not just watch the game? How many good throws did Flacco make? How many bad throws did Flacco make? How many "action plays" did he contribute to moving the ball, scoring, and protecting that score?

    Then compare his "positive action plays" with Brady's "positive action plays." Flacco had more of them--more good throws, less bad throws, etc. All you have to do is watch the game to figure that out.

    The thing is, when a player makes a lot of good plays, his contribution increases the team's chance of winning--and that's what it's all about in the end. But you can't just jump straight to "did the team win or lose" because he's not the only player whose performance affects the win/loss probability. We have to isolate how much a given player and his subset of plays affects that probability. Most typical statistics like passer rating and ESPN's QBR make no attempt to evaluate game action based on how much it actually contributes to the percentage of winning.
    I thought Flacco played well in the AFCCG. But the rankings I was refering to were not for just one game, but for this season. If you look back on Flacco's five year long career, you will see that Flacco ranks as about a Top 15 QB in the NFL. That is not bad at all, and is certainly good enough to win a SB with him at QB. I have never said that Flacco is not a good QB, but I have seen nothing from Flacco that shows me that he is a top tier difference maker at QB. He is not among the best QBs in the league. He is not good enough to compensate for a poor running game or a poor offensive line, or a poor defense. He is a QB that you can win a SB with, but he needs a lot of support. The Ravens will not likely win a SB because Flacco is their QB.




  12. #108
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by redmike34 View Post
    Haha--okay. Find me a statline from a REAL game in which that happened (and none of the winning team's scores were from defense/special teams), and I'll buy it.
    I could find literally hundreds of games where one QB had better stats than the other but lost. It happens weekly. Why does it matter where the other team's scores come from, that has nothing to do with which QB played better.


    Quote Originally Posted by redmike34 View Post
    Bottom line is, Brady had a much tougher job that day than Flacco did, and while it wasn't pretty by any means, he did enough to win. Which is why his team won, and also why arguing about whether or not he was outplayed is sour grapes at best and delusional at worst.
    Don't buy this. Joe faced a defense just as effective as ours ON THAT DAY, and he had much less offensive talent to accompany him.

    Frankly, you're insistence that it's impossible for a player to outplay his counterpart but lose in a team game is simply wrong. No one here agrees with it, literally... ask around. PM people. Start a poll.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




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