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Thread: Joe 'Manned Up'

  1. #106
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'



    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    So, you are basing your opinion of a QB based on stats, and not wins and losses? I generally agree with that approach. Keep in mind that Flacco ranks anywhere between 14 and 23 among QBs in the league based on the stats that QBs are judged by.
    No I base it on a combination of factors including stats, supporting cast, game plan, contributions in the clutch, and wins and losses. I was using the exagerated example to show that a QB can outplay his opposite number and lose. As for where Flacco ranks, raw stats are nice, but context is important.

    Example. When judging total number of TDs and yards he's thrown, how can you account for the MASSIVE (led the league) number of plus 50 yard pass interference calls he and Torrey have generated in the last two years? Those calls sucked yards and TDs off Joe's stat sheet and put the ball on the one where we rightfully handed it off to Ray, Leach, Ricky, or Joe himself. In the stat sheet Joe will get credit for nothing, but in reality his ability to place a ball deep down the field, and Torrey's ability to force defenders to mug him or be left in the dust, directly led to a TD that only a running back will get credit for. I've watched it happen enough to know that stats are only meaningful in context, and in context, Joe's are more than adequate to convince me that he's definitely a franchise QB, and potentially a great one.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  2. #107
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Statistics are nothing more than an attempt to describe real world events with symbols that are easily manipulated and digested. Statistics are most useful when you're talking about a large sample or a broad swath of events.

    Instead of being reliant on them to describe a single game, why not just watch the game? How many good throws did Flacco make? How many bad throws did Flacco make? How many "action plays" did he contribute to moving the ball, scoring, and protecting that score?

    Then compare his "positive action plays" with Brady's "positive action plays." Flacco had more of them--more good throws, less bad throws, etc. All you have to do is watch the game to figure that out.

    The thing is, when a player makes a lot of good plays, his contribution increases the team's chance of winning--and that's what it's all about in the end. But you can't just jump straight to "did the team win or lose" because he's not the only player whose performance affects the win/loss probability. We have to isolate how much a given player and his subset of plays affects that probability. Most typical statistics like passer rating and ESPN's QBR make no attempt to evaluate game action based on how much it actually contributes to the percentage of winning.
    I thought Flacco played well in the AFCCG. But the rankings I was refering to were not for just one game, but for this season. If you look back on Flacco's five year long career, you will see that Flacco ranks as about a Top 15 QB in the NFL. That is not bad at all, and is certainly good enough to win a SB with him at QB. I have never said that Flacco is not a good QB, but I have seen nothing from Flacco that shows me that he is a top tier difference maker at QB. He is not among the best QBs in the league. He is not good enough to compensate for a poor running game or a poor offensive line, or a poor defense. He is a QB that you can win a SB with, but he needs a lot of support. The Ravens will not likely win a SB because Flacco is their QB.




  3. #108
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by redmike34 View Post
    Haha--okay. Find me a statline from a REAL game in which that happened (and none of the winning team's scores were from defense/special teams), and I'll buy it.
    I could find literally hundreds of games where one QB had better stats than the other but lost. It happens weekly. Why does it matter where the other team's scores come from, that has nothing to do with which QB played better.


    Quote Originally Posted by redmike34 View Post
    Bottom line is, Brady had a much tougher job that day than Flacco did, and while it wasn't pretty by any means, he did enough to win. Which is why his team won, and also why arguing about whether or not he was outplayed is sour grapes at best and delusional at worst.
    Don't buy this. Joe faced a defense just as effective as ours ON THAT DAY, and he had much less offensive talent to accompany him.

    Frankly, you're insistence that it's impossible for a player to outplay his counterpart but lose in a team game is simply wrong. No one here agrees with it, literally... ask around. PM people. Start a poll.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  4. #109

    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by redmike34 View Post
    That doesn't really answer my question, which was, for an individual game, how do you quantify how a losing QB outplayed the winning one in defeat? Because that's at the root of what I believe is the incorrect belief that Flacco outplayed Brady in the AFCCG.
    To assess which QB played better during any game...

    you have to watch the game and see how they played. **

    And yes, if you watched the game you saw that Flacco did play better than Brady.
    It was one of Flacco's best games and not one of Brady's.

    I will add this about Brady: the week before against Tebow, err...I mean Denver, Brady went nuts, throwing the ball not only a ridiculous amount of times, but throwing a ridculous amount of deep passes (methinks he wanted to send a message to all the Tebow fanatics, because he really ran up the score on Tebow)
    The next week against the Ravens, Brady's arm seemed half-dead. Same against the Giants in the Super Bowl; he was underthrowing on a lot of his longer passes in both games.
    Maybe Brady at 36 doesn't have the stamina to throw 50+ times with half of those being bombs and bounce back strong the next week.

    **edit, just saw bmorecareful's post.
    He nailed it.




  5. #110

    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    I could find literally hundreds of games where one QB had better stats than the other but lost. It happens weekly. Why does it matter where the other team's scores come from, that has nothing to do with which QB played better.

    Don't buy this. Joe faced a defense just as effective as ours ON THAT DAY, and he had much less offensive talent to accompany him.

    Frankly, you're insistence that it's impossible for a player to outplay his counterpart but lose in a team game is simply wrong. No one here agrees with it, literally... ask around. PM people. Start a poll.
    Not just that, but as it's been said over and over, Flacco led the team downfield on the final drive and put them in position to win the game. Threw a perfect pass to the endzone that was dropped.

    And then gave the ball to the FG unit for a chip shot to at least get them to overtime. Shanked.

    Flacco did enough to win that game, and enough to tie that game, and the people he put the ball in the hands of failed. We can blame him for Denver, and that's fair. Blame him for Pittsburgh, that's fair. But the AFCC was in no way, shape, or form his fault or doing that we lost.

    ASB, I don't know why you are wasting your time. Between this, Alex Smith, blaming him for the Washington loss, I've given up on this debate. It's just not worth the effort.




  6. #111
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    "I don't think I'm top five, I think I'm the best".
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  7. #112
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by rlh445 View Post
    I uh, I uh...I don't know about this one guys, maybe we should throw him back in the water. Don, you remind me of a guy I work with. He always used that wonderful, 'deer in the headlights' phrase and even chided Flacco for having the gall to throw away a pass instead of 'taking the sack like a man'. What a moron. The both of you. How many games has Flacco actually, 'thrown away'? Gimme a break. Jesus Christ, the mental midgets on this board make me want to hunt the lot of you down, get you in a room and let you scratch each others' eyes out with a spoon. Because it hurts more, you twits.
    He is definitely one of the bigger idiots in Ravenfanville.




  8. #113
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    "I don't think I'm top five, I think I'm the best".
    I want my QB to think he's the best.

    Nobody lucks into being the best in the world at something. You have to work hard at it and believe in yourself.

    Obviously he's not the best but he has the potential to be. I'm excited to see where Joe's career will take him.




  9. #114
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    "I don't think I'm top five, I think I'm the best".
    Conveniently leaving off the context.

    “I think of myself the same way,” the fourth-year QB said. “Every quarterback in the league should feel that way. You don’t want to talk about yourself as a quarterback, but here in Baltimore, we’ve won a lot of games in the last three years and we’ve won playoff games each year. And when you’re talking about football games, it’s all about winning football games and that’s what we’ve done.”

    He clearly meant that he believes any QB should feel that way, and then he specifically talked about how WE'VE been winning, not "I, Joe Flacco" but "We, the Ravens".

    If any other QB in the league had said this it would have been ignored as the media-speak it was. But for some reason, people love to bring it up like it's some sort of indictment of Joe. It's pathetic and just makes you look like a hater.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  10. #115
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  11. #116
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by DonNMass View Post
    Wow Dude,i feel like a dentist with that pick that hit a nerve! Worst post ever? C'mon, the truth really must hurt. All over expecting a #1 pick to play like #1 pick? Really.

    Way too many words to even read.

    All I want is for the Ravens #1 pick not to lose games, (which he has with red zone picks, fumbles, deer in the headlight look, duh! ) Hell, I don't even wont him to win games, just don't keep losing them by throwing the game away.
    All I have to see is the "deer in the headlights" phrase and I know I'm reading the words of the clueless...




  12. #117

    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    I could find literally hundreds of games where one QB had better stats than the other but lost. It happens weekly. Why does it matter where the other team's scores come from, that has nothing to do with which QB played better.
    Of course it does. The Patriots offense scored all of those points. Their defense/special teams scored none of them. That means that Brady, for all of his crappy 55-point-whatever rating, put his offense in positions to put 23 points on the board, which just happened to be three more than Flacco could manage on the day... drops and missed FGs notwithstanding. And you can say oh, but coaches, receivers... whoever else. Okay. No argument on that from me. But the simple fact is that Brady, between his passing, playcalls, the decisions he made on the field, got 23 points for his team, which was enough to win.

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    Don't buy this. Joe faced a defense just as effective as ours ON THAT DAY, and he had much less offensive talent to accompany him.
    That's possible. Not fact, but possible. In any event, for the most part Flacco had the same offense that was good enough to win in Pittsburgh against a much better defense. On a related note, so many people have castigated Lee Evans for dropping that pass... am I the only one who wonders a) why he was on the field in the first place and b) why Flacco threw the ball to him? That dude sucked. All year. Of all the receivers I didn't want to be on the field for the most important play of the year, Lee Evans is at the top of the list.

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    Frankly, you're insistence that it's impossible for a player to outplay his counterpart but lose in a team game is simply wrong. No one here agrees with it, literally... ask around. PM people. Start a poll.
    That's not my insistence... it's basically the root of the argument for all of you Flacco acolytes. As Dirt1 pointed out, there's not a statistical metric at which one can point and prove that Flacco is among the elite QBs in the NFL. Aside from QB wins. So your argument for Flacco basically has to be something along the lines of "well, he didn't complete x-percent of passes, he didn't throw y-touchdowns, and he threw z-interceptions, so his rating looks like crap, but hey! Ravens win!!!! Woot! Ozzie, give this guy $100 million!" Right? Well, that's what Brady did that game...




  13. #118
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by redmike34 View Post
    That's not my insistence... it's basically the root of the argument for all of you Flacco acolytes. As Dirt1 pointed out, there's not a statistical metric at which one can point and prove that Flacco is among the elite QBs in the NFL. Aside from QB wins. So your argument for Flacco basically has to be something along the lines of "well, he didn't complete x-percent of passes, he didn't throw y-touchdowns, and he threw z-interceptions, so his rating looks like crap, but hey! Ravens win!!!! Woot! Ozzie, give this guy $100 million!" Right? Well, that's what Brady did that game...
    Do you often beat up on strawmen?

    I don't know anybody that calls Flacco "elite." I haven't seen anyone on this forum call him "elite."

    Flacco played well enough to win in the AFCCG. He played well enough to win against the Redskins a couple of weeks ago. It wasn't Flacco leaving the middle of the field wide open for Charlie Batch, nor was he allowing defenders to penetrate and stuff the run in the backfield.

    Even so, he invariably gets the blame for a loss, while any credit for the victories the team has won during his tenure get laid at the feet of Anyone But Flacco.

    Then, you guys wonder why you get labeled Flacco-haters...




  14. #119

    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by bacchys View Post
    Do you often beat up on strawmen?

    I don't know anybody that calls Flacco "elite." I haven't seen anyone on this forum call him "elite."

    Flacco played well enough to win in the AFCCG. He played well enough to win against the Redskins a couple of weeks ago. It wasn't Flacco leaving the middle of the field wide open for Charlie Batch, nor was he allowing defenders to penetrate and stuff the run in the backfield.

    Even so, he invariably gets the blame for a loss, while any credit for the victories the team has won during his tenure get laid at the feet of Anyone But Flacco.

    Then, you guys wonder why you get labeled Flacco-haters...
    People around here seem to have no problem paying him like an "elite" QB.

    Of course he gets the blame for the loss--he's the effing QB. Quick--why are the Jets losing? First words that pop into my head--Mark Sanchez. There may be other factors, but when all is said and done, Sanchez gets the majority of the blame, and probably deservedly so.

    No, but Flacco sure did get outplayed by Charlie Batch that day. He got outplayed by the rookie QBs from Was too. At least, if we're going to use the same definition of 'outplayed' used to justify saying he outplayed Brady in the SB...




  15. #120
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    Re: Joe 'Manned Up'

    Quote Originally Posted by redmike34 View Post
    People around here seem to have no problem paying him like an "elite" QB.
    Who? I know I'm not one of them. Top 5 ain't top 2, and at best you've got 2 "elite" QB's in the league. Otherwise, you ain't talking about "elite."

    Plus, top 5 money now isn't going to be top 5 money in 3,4,5 years, unless the money trends in the NFL take a weird, completely unexpected turn. Banking on salaries decreasing in the NFL over the next decade seems a foolish bet to me.

    Flacco's a good QB. Paying him roughly $100 million over 7 years isn't going to be a bank-breaker.

    Of course he gets the blame for the loss--he's the effing QB. Quick--why are the Jets losing? First words that pop into my head--Mark Sanchez. There may be other factors, but when all is said and done, Sanchez gets the majority of the blame, and probably deservedly so.
    If he's getting the blame for the losses, he should be getting the credit for the wins. You're willing to do the one, but not the other. How convenient.

    No, but Flacco sure did get outplayed by Charlie Batch that day. He got outplayed by the rookie QBs from Was too. At least, if we're going to use the same definition of 'outplayed' used to justify saying he outplayed Brady in the SB...
    He did get outplayed by RGIII, I think. He didn't by Batch. Batch was largely untroubled in the pocket and had wide-open receivers. Flacco was mostly unprotected and holding out for receivers running deep routes to get open. It didn't help that he was whistled "in the grasp" on a play where he avoided a sack by completing a pass in the flat.

    Do you really watch the games, or do you just go by your fantasy box scores?




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