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Thread: The "Challenge"

  1. #13

    Re: The "Challenge"



    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Yeah, Pereira did not explain why. And the only possible reason is (and I am still trying to find the exact language of the rule) that the ref blew the whistle after the fumble. It used to be that after the whistle blew no one could recover, but a few years ago I am pretty sure they changed it so that a team could still recover (but I suspect not advance) a fumble after an inadvertent/premature whistle. As I said, standard fumbles can be advanced, it happens all the time obviously.

    Here's the applicable section, from the NFL rulebook:

    Section #9: Instant Replay
    Reviewable Plays, paragraph c), Other reviewable plays:

    1. Runner ruled not down by defensive contact.
    2. Runner ruled down by defensive contact when the recovery of a fumble by an opponent or a
    teammate occurs in the action that happens following the fumble.
    3. Ruling of incomplete pass when the recovery of a passer’s fumble by an opponent or a teammate
    occurs in the action following the fumble.

    4. Ruling of a loose ball out of bounds when it is recovered in the field of play by an opponent or a
    teammate in the action after the ball hits the ground.

    Note 1: If the ruling of down by contact or incomplete pass is changed, the ball belongs to the recovering
    player at the spot of the recovery of the fumble, and any advance is nullified.


    The reason for this is: The NFL wants players to stop playing when the whistle blows, but doesn't want to punish a team that clearly would have recovered a fumble if the Ref hadn't screwed up the call.

    It must be CLEAR that the player would have recovered the ball if the correct call (i.e: fumble, not incomplete pass) had been made on the field, and then the play is dead at that point, with the recovering player not allowed to advance the ball.

    So yea, Harbaugh should have challanged.

    ETA: I'm working off the 2011 NFL rulebook: If someone has the 2012 version, please let me know

    http://www.blogandtackle.net/wp-cont...FLRuleBook.pdf
    Last edited by MarkS; 12-23-2012 at 09:12 PM.




  2. #14
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    I think he relies on someone upstairs to tell him when to challenge.
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  3. #15

    Re: The "Challenge"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    I think he relies on someone upstairs to tell him when to challenge.
    He must have hired a new person midseason because he used to be very good at when and when not to challenge.

    It's been really, really bad the last couple weeks.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  4. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    He must have hired a new person midseason because he used to be very good at when and when not to challenge.

    It's been really, really bad the last couple weeks.
    Maybe they are letting Cam do it )
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  5. #17

    Re: The "Challenge"

    Yeah, I was getting to that section, but stumbled upon this confusing part of the rulebook (that looks to be specifically overruled by the part you mentioned):

    Section 2. Dead Ball
    Article 1: Dead Ball Declared


    ....

    (n) when an official sounds his whistle while the ball is still in play, the ball becomes dead immediately;
    (i) If the ball is in player possession, the team in possession may elect to put the ball in play where it
    has been declared dead or to replay the down.
    (ii) If the ball is a loose ball resulting from a fumble, backward pass, or illegal forward pass, the team
    last in possession may elect to put the ball in play at the spot where possession was lost or to
    replay the down.




  6. #18
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    Re: The "Challenge"

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    Frankly, I think he didn't understand that the play wouldn't have continued after Upshaw's recovery...that he thought it may have been a fumble, but feared that if the ref's changed it to a fumble, they would have given the ball back to New York because of Upshaw's fumble.
    After the called back JJ TD, and the bizarre calls and explanations in the game, I would not have trusted the refs to make the right call whether they reviewed it or not. When the refs told Coughlin the challenge would do him no good, and we knew it was 4th down, the thing to do was leave well enough alone. Giants couldn't challenge, and knowing the Giants had to punt.

    If we had challenged, I am not at all sure the idiot in the replay booth would have done the right thing.

    I think the thought process was, "Screw it, let's just take the punt and not give these morons in the booth another chance to **** us with a replay review. They're liable to give the Giants the damn ball. Screw it."
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  7. #19
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    But they didn't blow the whistle, they let it play out. I may be missing the point here
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  8. #20

    Re: The "Challenge"

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    Once they ruled that it was an incomplete pass, the play would have stopped at the spot of the clear recovery of Upshaw.

    I thought it was a horrible "non challenge" by Harbaugh...particularly after his horrible thinking process over the last couple weeks with challenging.

    Frankly, I think he didn't understand that the play wouldn't have continued after Upshaw's recovery...that he thought it may have been a fumble, but feared that if the ref's changed it to a fumble, they would have given the ball back to New York because of Upshaw's fumble.

    It was a bad no challenge.
    Thats what happened, he didn't know what to do basically. But he knew he would get the ball back and didnt want to jeopardize losing the ball somehow. Football coaches and officials are far from geniuses. Why isnt UpStupid just falling on the football instead of trying to run with it?




  9. #21

    Re: The "Challenge"

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Yeah, I was getting to that section, but stumbled upon this confusing part of the rulebook (that looks to be specifically overruled by the part you mentioned):

    Section 2. Dead Ball
    Article 1: Dead Ball Declared


    ....

    (n) when an official sounds his whistle while the ball is still in play, the ball becomes dead immediately;
    (i) If the ball is in player possession, the team in possession may elect to put the ball in play where it
    has been declared dead or to replay the down.
    (ii) If the ball is a loose ball resulting from a fumble, backward pass, or illegal forward pass, the team
    last in possession may elect to put the ball in play at the spot where possession was lost or to
    replay the down.
    Yea, I saw that too, but I was sure I'd heard this specific case mentioned when they originally discussed changing the rule.

    Also, I've found a link for the 2012 Rulebook, in case anyone is interested:

    http://www.blogandtackle.net/wp-cont...FLRuleBook.pdf

    They've modified that section to include backward passes, but otherwise it's the same.




  10. #22

    Re: The "Challenge"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    But they didn't blow the whistle, they let it play out. I may be missing the point here
    I think they blew it and signaled incomplete, then sort of let it play out (didn't keep blowing their whistles). I need to watch the replay again, but I remember thinking "how can they call that incomplete" as the play was still going on. I also remember they started blowing their whistles repeatedly before the final recovery (by the Giants) was finished or sorted out.

    It was a weird play. And one I think Harbaugh should have challenged, but it only cost us field position as we were going to get the ball back on a punt anyway.




  11. #23

    Re: The "Challenge"

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    Once they ruled that it was an incomplete pass, the play would have stopped at the spot of the clear recovery of Upshaw.

    I thought it was a horrible "non challenge" by Harbaugh...particularly after his horrible thinking process over the last couple weeks with challenging.

    Frankly, I think he didn't understand that the play wouldn't have continued after Upshaw's recovery...that he thought it may have been a fumble, but feared that if the ref's changed it to a fumble, they would have given the ball back to New York because of Upshaw's fumble.

    It was a bad no challenge.
    That was exactly my thinking -- that Harbaugh simply did not understand the rules as they applied to that play, and he thought the ball might be given to the Giants. But even so, it would have been 5 yards behind where they ended up spotting it anyway, and he wouldn't have lost the challenge because it was clearly a fumble, not an incomplete pass. The whole thing was a mess, to say the least. But it was another example of Harbaugh's confusion on the sideline when a decisive informed call needed to be made by him.




  12. #24

    Re: The "Challenge"

    Quote Originally Posted by NC Raven View Post
    After the called back JJ TD, and the bizarre calls and explanations in the game, I would not have trusted the refs to make the right call whether they reviewed it or not. When the refs told Coughlin the challenge would do him no good, and we knew it was 4th down, the thing to do was leave well enough alone. Giants couldn't challenge, and knowing the Giants had to punt.

    If we had challenged, I am not at all sure the idiot in the replay booth would have done the right thing.

    I think the thought process was, "Screw it, let's just take the punt and not give these morons in the booth another chance to **** us with a replay review. They're liable to give the Giants the damn ball. Screw it."
    All they would lose is a time out...if we got that call, we likely would have put the game away a lot earlier.

    As to your last point...after the refs said "the replay would not benefit the Giants at all"...they just told the world that at worst if we threw the flag, we'd lose a time out late in the first half (I think it was the first half).
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




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