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Thread: The "Challenge"

  1. #31

    Re: The "Challenge"



    Quote Originally Posted by MarkS View Post
    Well, there's more to it than just losing the timeout. We had already challenged once (successfully). If we challenged again and lost, we'd be out of challenges for the rest of the game. Considering it was still the 1st half, and the game was still close, that's pretty significant.

    In retrospect, it seems obvious to challenge. At the time though, you're weighing the following possibilities:

    - ruling goes in your favor: get the turnover, have the ball in Giants territory,
    - ruling goes against you (1): the pass is ruled incomplete, you gain nothing and lose the ability to challenge a call for the rest of the game
    - ruling goes against you (2): the play is ruled a fumble, BUT the refs decide the play was never stopped (this may actually be true: I rewatched the play, and on TV, you never hear a whistle blow, or see a ref wave his arms). the head ref then holds that the play continued without interruption, and both fumbles count, giving the ball back to the Giants.

    3rd outcome may be a long-shot, but impossible? Not if you've been watching the same games I have all these years

    Given that there's a lot that can possibly go wrong, and you're GUARANTEED to get the ball if you do nothing, a punt starts to look like a pretty good option.

    Especially when you have about 20 seconds to decide, and no replay to look at before deciding.
    We never challenged the entire game, so I'm not sure what you are referring to as far as a possibility of being out of Challenges.

    Like someone else pointed out, if you are referring to the Jones non fumble, that was a booth initiated replay (all turnovers and TD's are automatically reviewed).

    As to your third point...the refs CLEARLY stated that there was no possible benefit for the Giants by challenging. If they say there is no possible benefit of challenging, then they were not going to give that ball back to the Giants. Coughlin tried to make that challenge...they told him that was not going to be a possible outcome of the play so the that point really makes no sense and just reeks of paranoia.

    And he had a hell of a lot longer than 20 seconds...Coughlin threw the flag and the refs spent time going over there to explain to him why he couldn't challenge.

    There was literally no reason not to challenge that call.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  2. #32
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    Re: The "Challenge"

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    That was exactly my thinking -- that Harbaugh simply did not understand the rules as they applied to that play.
    Then why is he a head coach? Isn't that a basic requirement of being a head coach?




  3. #33

    Re: The "Challenge"

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    Then why is he a head coach? Isn't that a basic requirement of being a head coach?
    1. He's a head coach because Bisciotti likes him (and he has taken the team to the playoffs 5 straight years).
    2. I would think it's a basic requirement, yes.





  4. #34
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    Re: The "Challenge"

    Mike Perreira politely said that Harbaugh is an idiot....nothing that any of us haven't already seen. Great motivator. Awful game strategist.

    He made 5-6 coaching mistakes last week against Denver. In yesterday's game, he made 3 coaching mistakes in the span of the last 5 minutes of the half

    1-failure to challenge the Manning fumble

    2-failure to use a time out after the Ayanbadejo sack put Giants in a 2nd and 17 at their own 10 yard line with roughly 50 seconds left. The Ravens only had two left at that point, but you use one right up front to stop the clock and then you hope that the Giants either throw an incompletion or go out bounds (which Cruz did the very next play). You never know if the Giants run a passing play those 2nd and 3rd downs if the Ravens do use their 2nd time out with 50 seconds to go, but you at least have to pressure them into this decision. On 2nd and 17 from the Giant 10 yard line, the odds are MUCH stronger than you can turn that position into point than the opposition will.

    3 -failure to throw a hail mary at the end of the first half when the Ravens had the ball at the 50 yard line.

    These are unforgivable coaching mistakes. The failure to throw the hail mary was total laziness.

    In 15 games this year, I swear Harbaugh has made at least 15 coaching mistakes with regards to clock management just in the last few minutes of the first half. After the games, he acts so disconnected from these simple coaching scenarios, and that makes me think he's in over his head in terms of understand game strategy and probabilities.




  5. #35

    Re: The "Challenge"

    @LukeDaniel

    The decision to not at least try a hail mary after having called time out to GET the opportunity to toss up a hail mary just made no sense to me at all. Often times Harbaugh just leaves me scratching my head and asking "Why?".




  6. #36
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    Re: The "Challenge"

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    It was clusterf*ck by the refs, so I am not sure they would have given us the ball. In reality, the Giants should have gotten the ball first and 10, except the refs blew the ball dead. Neither Aikman nor Pereira explained the situation well, but suffice it to say there is no rule preventing the advancement of a fumble (fumble returns for TDs happen all the time).

    But after the whistle blows is the issue, and I am still not sure exactly when the whistle blew. I suspect the refs would have claimed it was blowing before Upshaw picked it up just to cover their own mistake of blowing it prematurely in the first place.
    Depends on the clock:

    Fumble

    The distinction between a fumble and a muff should be kept in mind in considering rules about fumbles. A fumble is the loss of player possession of the ball. A muff is the touching of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to obtain possession.
    A fumble may be advanced by any player on either team regardless of whether recovered before or after ball hits the ground.
    A fumble that goes forward and out of bounds will return to the fumbling team at the spot of the fumble unless the ball goes out of bounds in the opponent’s end zone. In this case, it is a touchback.
    On a play from scrimmage, if an offensive player fumbles anywhere on the field during fourth down, only the fumbling player is permitted to recover and/or advance the ball. If any player fumbles after the two-minute warning in a half, only the fumbling player is permitted to recover and/or advance the ball. If recovered by any other offensive player, the ball is dead at the spot of the fumble unless it is recovered behind the spot of the fumble. In that case, the ball is dead at the spot of recovery. Any defensive player may recover and/or advance any fumble at any time.
    A muffed hand-to-hand snap from center is treated as a fumble.
    http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/fumble




  7. #37
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    Re: The "Challenge"

    And now the thread goes from an understandable question about why certain things weren't done on a very confusing play which the refs probably botched and did a horrible job of explaining, to "here comes the stupid!"




  8. #38
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    Re: The "Challenge"

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    @LukeDaniel

    The decision to not at least try a hail mary after having called time out to GET the opportunity to toss up a hail mary just made no sense to me at all. Often times Harbaugh just leaves me scratching my head and asking "Why?".
    I didn't understand why they called timeout (albeit a little late) and made them punt just to take a knee. Maybe they were hoping for a big play on the punt but that's about all I can come up with.
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  9. #39

    Re: The "Challenge"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    I didn't understand why they called timeout (albeit a little late) and made them punt just to take a knee. Maybe they were hoping for a big play on the punt but that's about all I can come up with.
    That thought crossed my mind. But they were certainly in decent enough position to at least toss up a Hail Mary and hope for a P.I. to get a field goal out of it even without a great return.




  10. #40
    iggyman555 Guest

    Re: The "Challenge"

    harbage is an idiot and a terrible game day/Xs and Os coach...that is all folks




  11. #41

    Re: The "Challenge"

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    Mike Perreira politely said that Harbaugh is an idiot....nothing that any of us haven't already seen. Great motivator. Awful game strategist.

    He made 5-6 coaching mistakes last week against Denver. In yesterday's game, he made 3 coaching mistakes in the span of the last 5 minutes of the half

    1-failure to challenge the Manning fumble

    2-failure to use a time out after the Ayanbadejo sack put Giants in a 2nd and 17 at their own 10 yard line with roughly 50 seconds left. The Ravens only had two left at that point, but you use one right up front to stop the clock and then you hope that the Giants either throw an incompletion or go out bounds (which Cruz did the very next play). You never know if the Giants run a passing play those 2nd and 3rd downs if the Ravens do use their 2nd time out with 50 seconds to go, but you at least have to pressure them into this decision. On 2nd and 17 from the Giant 10 yard line, the odds are MUCH stronger than you can turn that position into point than the opposition will.

    3 -failure to throw a hail mary at the end of the first half when the Ravens had the ball at the 50 yard line.

    These are unforgivable coaching mistakes. The failure to throw the hail mary was total laziness.

    In 15 games this year, I swear Harbaugh has made at least 15 coaching mistakes with regards to clock management just in the last few minutes of the first half. After the games, he acts so disconnected from these simple coaching scenarios, and that makes me think he's in over his head in terms of understand game strategy and probabilities.
    Excellent summary. I agree with everything you said. We can all agree that Harbaugh is a very good (albeit inconsistent at times) motivator and pre-game manager. However, he is a catastrophic liability on game day because of his inability to manage the game and make good tactical decisions.

    He's not the only coach that has those problems, though. Andy Reid has been derided as a bad game-day coach for a long time. Harbaugh can improve in those respects, although it seems unlikely after he cost this team a chance to tie the AFCCG last year and blew several games this year. I still hope he does.




  12. #42

    Re: The "Challenge"

    I am far from upset about attempting a hail mary.

    What he really should have done is have Jones call for a fair catch so we could have tried a free kick.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  13. #43

    Re: The "Challenge"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    But they didn't blow the whistle, they let it play out. I may be missing the point here
    If he didn't blow the whistle, then he must of thought it wasn't an incomplete forward pass, but a fumble. But then changes his mind at the end to declare an incomplete forward pass. If he declared it was a fumble, the automatic review would take over on the turnover, and it would be Giants ball on the recovery after the review.




  14. #44
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    Re: The "Challenge"

    They didn't blow the whistle until after the ball was stripped from Upshaw, as I remember it.

    Given how confused the officiating crew was, I'm not going to blame Harbaugh for holding onto the challenge flag. Those idiots would have probably wound up awarding the Giants the ball on the Ravens' 1 yard line.




  15. #45
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    Re: The "Challenge"

    Quote Originally Posted by bacchys View Post
    They didn't blow the whistle until after the ball was stripped from Upshaw, as I remember it.

    Given how confused the officiating crew was, I'm not going to blame Harbaugh for holding onto the challenge flag. Those idiots would have probably wound up awarding the Giants the ball on the Ravens' 1 yard line.
    I agree, we were going to get the ball back on the punt and who the hell knows what would've happened with a challenge. It was total confusion
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




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