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  1. #85
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    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money



    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    But can you win a SB with average play at the QB position? I think you can, Eli Manning did in 2008, Ben Roethlisberger did in 2006 and somewhat in 2009 too.

    Yes offensive competence is important, but I'm not sure if you need an elite QB to have that. Either way, Flacco isn't an elite QB, and probably will never become one, but the general agreement around here is that we can win with Flacco as the starting QB, but need a better supporting cast. Otherwise, we need a new QB if we don't have that supporting cast, because I don't think Flacco will ever be good enough to win us a championship off his arm.

    And to answer your previous question... Johnny Football
    .
    Now I know you're joking. Dude is barely 6' and 200lbs. He doesn't have a big arm at all. He's elusive and makes plays with his feet, but if you think he'd be any better than Flacco in the NFL...I don't know man. I wonder about you sometimes...

    John Manziel is a more athletic Colt McCoy.

    And to answer your question about avg QB play...I think you can win a SB with avg QB play as long as you have a strong supporting cast. You yourself have claimed that Flacco is avg and when he's on he can play up to a good and sometimes great level. So, why can't he win a championship in Baltimore?

    If you're still harping on the financial issue, then you're getting worked up for no reason because frankly there hasn't been a damn word about the contract stuff since the summer. I can guarantee you that Flacco and his agent have come back down to earth big time because this season has not nearly gone the way they had hoped it would.

    How many folks thought that Rice wouldn't sign? He did and for a deal significantly less than what Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson signed for.
    Last edited by wickedsolo; 12-18-2012 at 10:29 PM.
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  2. #86
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    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsfan82 View Post
    I'm at a loss as to why people don't understand your premise. It's like somehow if Flacco does get a 16-18 mil a year contract it would validate that he's "elite". At this point it would not make good business sense to invest that much into him, since he's proven that he cannot carry this team.
    No, people understand his premise fully.

    Most are also agreeing that Flacco's contract needs to be handled efficiently and carefully as it severely impacts the rest of the team (cap wise).

    The problems with this premise is 1) we dont have a damn clue what offer was put on the table over the summer, 2) what Joe and his agent will be looking for after the season because he won't get top tiered money, and 3) no stop-gap QB is going to do any better until they fix the OL and receivers.

    The only way to do those things is through the draft. Plain and simple.

    QB is the hardest position to find. Most teams don't even have an average/above average QB. We do. He isn't going anywhere.
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  3. #87

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    No, people understand his premise fully.

    Most are also agreeing that Flacco's contract needs to be handled efficiently and carefully as it severely impacts the rest of the team (cap wise).

    The problems with this premise is 1) we dont have a damn clue what offer was put on the table over the summer, 2) what Joe and his agent will be looking for after the season because he won't get top tiered money, and 3) no stop-gap QB is going to do any better until they fix the OL and receivers.

    The only way to do those things is through the draft. Plain and simple.

    QB is the hardest position to find. Most teams don't even have an average/above average QB. We do. He isn't going anywhere.
    You say he isn't going anywhere because money isn't an issue. But aren't you failing to take into consideration that even though the Ravens might not be willing to pay top tier money, some OTHER team(s) most likely will. So what's stopping Joe from going elsewhere?




  4. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    You say he isn't going anywhere because money isn't an issue. But aren't you failing to take into consideration that even though the Ravens might not be willing to pay top tier money, some OTHER team(s) most likely will. So what's stopping Joe from going elsewhere?
    They'll tag him. He's not going anywhere next year
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  5. #89

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    They'll tag him. He's not going anywhere next year
    I get that. But it seemed like W.S. was saying that Joe's camp had come down in their financial expectations and would be asking for less money for a long term deal. That's what I was asking about.




  6. #90
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    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    You say he isn't going anywhere because money isn't an issue. But aren't you failing to take into consideration that even though the Ravens might not be willing to pay top tier money, some OTHER team(s) most likely will. So what's stopping Joe from going elsewhere?
    I have no doubt at all that some other team would absolutely be willing to pay Flacco a ridiculous contract. I'm sure he knows it too. I'd like to think that there are some players who would rather be handsomely paid and play for an organization that cares about winning, but I'm a realist and understand that if a team dangles a $100 million contract in front of a 28 year old Flacco, it is going to be pretty hard to turn down. I get that.

    There is no easy solution around any of this and ultimately, this is the front office's fault. Not Flacco's. The front office botching consecutive drafts has left the cupboards barren at a lot of key positions and as a result they had no choice but to bring back old vets with bloated contracts and the results speak for themselves.

    At the end of the day, the QB position is the hardest to scout, draft, and develop. We've got a pretty good one here. He has his issues, but what athlete doesn't? What QB doesn't go through slumps? I'm sure he is well aware that this season has not gone the way he would have liked. I'm also pretty sure that both he and his agent are intelligent enough to understand that he has played himself out of several millions of dollars. That said, I am also pretty damn positive that Steve Bisciotti is no dummy and has a good memory of what this team was like with crap play from the QB position (and by crap play, I mean Kyle Boller and a noodle-armed Steve McNair). The Ravens organization knows possibly better than anybody how difficult finding even an average to slightly above average QB can be. THAT is why I say that Flacco isn't going anywhere. THAT is also why I say that it is vital for this front office to fix their scouting and drafting woes and surround Flacco with a good supporting cast because even if Flacco does - hopefully - eventually ascend to that upper echelon of QB play on a consistent basis, he is still going to need an OL that can give him time, receivers that can get open, and a defense that can get off the field. Right now, those three things are severely lacking and that is a direct result of poor drafting, poor contract management, and poor development at key positions.

    At the moment, Flacco could already have a deal in place. We don't know. Or, Flacco could have told them to shove it and he'll take his chances in free agency or be tagged because he hates John Harbaugh and wants to pee on Ray Rice's cheerios. We don't know. Or, all parties involved said "this is what we're thinking monetarily, but let's get through this season and revisit this in February?"

    I think the later is the most likely scenario. I also think that if Flacco doesn't sign right away, they will tag him and try to get something hammered out before training camp, which is exactly what happened with Rice last year and I'd say that worked out well for all parties involved.
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  7. #91
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    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    I get that. But it seemed like W.S. was saying that Joe's camp had come down in their financial expectations and would be asking for less money for a long term deal. That's what I was asking about.
    That's not really what I said at all.

    Everyone here is flipping out because Joe said he thought he was a top QB in the NFL (and fail to follow that up with Joe's caveat that he thinks every QB should think they are a top QB...which adds a completely un-arrogant context to the statement...but whatever) and his agent said that they were looking for a top contract.

    1 - what the fuck does "top contract" even mean? Ray Rice's agent said the same thing...Rice got paid, but he got a market value deal and not some retarded contract that the Titans unwisely gave Chris Johnson.

    2 - we don't know how Joe's performance is going to impact negotiations once the season is over. To imply that Flacco is still going to demand "top" dollar and that's it is just kind of...dramatic.

    If anything, this season should be a testament that Joe can't carry a team by his lonesome. Maybe he'll get to that point later in his career. Maybe he won't. However, if they want to win now (which I have to assume that they do...because winning = more $$$ for everyone in the long run), then Flacco's camp AND the Raven's Camp need to find a solution that allows the team to provide a better supporting cast.

    That does not mean Flacco is a game manager. That just means he can't do it all on his own. Even Peyton Manning needed Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Dallas Clark, and a hell of an offensive line to win a SB. Tom Brady needed excellent OL's, Corey Dillon, and a standout defense to win a SB. Eli needed Plaxico Burress, a good OL, Tiki Barber, and a ferocious defense to win it all. I doubt anyone would call Eli a game manager. And while Roethlisberger can shake off would-be-sacks, he still needed Hines Ward, Jerome Bettis, and a top defense to win a SB.
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  8. #92

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    That's not really what I said at all.

    Everyone here is flipping out because Joe said he thought he was a top QB in the NFL (and fail to follow that up with Joe's caveat that he thinks every QB should think they are a top QB...which adds a completely un-arrogant context to the statement...but whatever) and his agent said that they were looking for a top contract.

    1 - what the fuck does "top contract" even mean? Ray Rice's agent said the same thing...Rice got paid, but he got a market value deal and not some retarded contract that the Titans unwisely gave Chris Johnson.

    2 - we don't know how Joe's performance is going to impact negotiations once the season is over. To imply that Flacco is still going to demand "top" dollar and that's it is just kind of...dramatic.

    If anything, this season should be a testament that Joe can't carry a team by his lonesome. Maybe he'll get to that point later in his career. Maybe he won't. However, if they want to win now (which I have to assume that they do...because winning = more $$$ for everyone in the long run), then Flacco's camp AND the Raven's Camp need to find a solution that allows the team to provide a better supporting cast.

    That does not mean Flacco is a game manager. That just means he can't do it all on his own. Even Peyton Manning needed Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Dallas Clark, and a hell of an offensive line to win a SB. Tom Brady needed excellent OL's, Corey Dillon, and a standout defense to win a SB. Eli needed Plaxico Burress, a good OL, Tiki Barber, and a ferocious defense to win it all. I doubt anyone would call Eli a game manager. And while Roethlisberger can shake off would-be-sacks, he still needed Hines Ward, Jerome Bettis, and a top defense to win a SB.
    Thanks. And that all makes perfect sense. But if the Ravens offer one amount, which represents fair market value, and another team offers something above fair market value, aside from the franchise tag next season, is there any reason you could think of why Joe would take the Ravens offer over the other offer?




  9. #93
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    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by Corey View Post
    Leach we don't know what the Ravens offered him.
    There were several reports back in camp saying that he was looking for top 5 money, Joe Linta even said so him self. Kevin Bryne actually came out and answered a question of someones regarding Flacco's contract situation. He pretty much said that the offer is on the table, but he's asking for too much money.




  10. #94
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    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Now I know you're joking. Dude is barely 6' and 200lbs. He doesn't have a big arm at all. He's elusive and makes plays with his feet, but if you think he'd be any better than Flacco in the NFL...I don't know man. I wonder about you sometimes...

    John Manziel is a more athletic Colt McCoy.

    And to answer your question about avg QB play...I think you can win a SB with avg QB play as long as you have a strong supporting cast. You yourself have claimed that Flacco is avg and when he's on he can play up to a good and sometimes great level. So, why can't he win a championship in Baltimore?

    If you're still harping on the financial issue, then you're getting worked up for no reason because frankly there hasn't been a damn word about the contract stuff since the summer. I can guarantee you that Flacco and his agent have come back down to earth big time because this season has not nearly gone the way they had hoped it would.

    How many folks thought that Rice wouldn't sign? He did and for a deal significantly less than what Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson signed for.
    Oh comon, I wasn't serious about that. But you have to wonder sometimes with the success Seattle have had with Russell Wilson, when nobody thought he'd even be a starter in the league at his size.




  11. #95

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    To those of you who think that we should trade Joe/let him walk, then sign Alex Smith or Matt Flynn as a stop gap, then draft a better QB in 2013/14/15, my question is this:

    Given this FO's track record in recent years regarding the draft, what makes you so confident they CAN draft a better QB?
    For that matter what makes you think this coaching staff is capable of developing one?




  12. #96
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    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by PerpetuallyBored74 View Post
    To those of you who think that we should trade Joe/let him walk, then sign Alex Smith or Matt Flynn as a stop gap, then draft a better QB in 2013/14/15, my question is this:

    Given this FO's track record in recent years regarding the draft, what makes you so confident they CAN draft a better QB?
    For that matter what makes you think this coaching staff is capable of developing one?

    This town would go apeshit if Joe left then goes on to a team and wins 3-4 Superbowls....




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