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  1. #76

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money



    I keep hearing how Joe isn't gonna get the money he was previously looking.

    I say it's a definitely possibility that the Flacco camp will still stand strong in their demands.

    Sure, his play doesn't merit top 5 (or top 10 IMO) money but he knows the team is in a pickle.

    Franchising him destroys the cap and is always a sticky situation, especially with QBs. And it doesn't address anything long term.

    The Ravens can comeback after the season with an offer most of us fans think is fair. But what if he doesn't budge?

    What if he says "I'll take my chances in the open market or franchise me"? He will point out that the team canned the OC during week 14 and that the entire 2012 season (on offense) never had a chance etc....

    I honestly believe Flacco was asking for the moon prior to the season. To me that's the only scenario that explains why they are in the situation they are in now. And I don't believe that Flacco's camp is gonna accept alot less than they were asking for 4 months ago.

    And that's gonna be a big problem.

    PP




  2. #77

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    So, which QB coming out in the next 2-3 years will meet or exceed what Joe Flacco has done here?
    This is basically an impossible question to answer, but I'm going to come out and try to answer it in a nuanced way. With this coaching staff, with this offensive personnel, there is NO CHANCE any of the QBs coming out over the next few years would exceed what Flacco has done. I readily concede that.

    All of the great QBs who have come out over the past few years have had success when paired with bright young coaches in very quarterback-friendly offensive systems. I think Andy Dalton is the best example, he was given a good supporting cast and Jay Gruden who's a genius OC with a very QB-friendly WCO. Dalton himself isn't terribly talented and he went in the 2nd round. Kaepernick is similar, he has a lot of talent but was seen as a big project causing him to fall into the 2nd. He wouldn't be what he was now without Jim Harbaugh and his great system. Even Andrew Luck and RGIII have the support of brilliant play-callers and QB developers in Bruce Arians and the Shanahans.

    Honestly, the chances of hitting on an Andy Dalton aren't terribly high... but we would maximize our chances if we committed the entire team to going all in on offense in terms of both the coaching staff and personnel. It would probably mean starting over with the coaching staff. It would involve growing pains. But the point would be getting a QB who makes good decisions, plays well under pressure, and manages the game well. I'm soured on the ultra-talented strong-armed QBs like Boller and Flacco... looking more at a WCO-friendly kind of guy like Zac Dysert, Ryan Nassib, Aaron Murray (2013) or AJ McCarron, Derek Carr, Brynn Renner (2014)




  3. #78

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by purplepoe View Post
    I keep hearing how Joe isn't gonna get the money he was previously looking.

    I say it's a definitely possibility that the Flacco camp will still stand strong in their demands.

    Sure, his play doesn't merit top 5 (or top 10 IMO) money but he knows the team is in a pickle.

    Franchising him destroys the cap and is always a sticky situation, especially with QBs. And it doesn't address anything long term.

    The Ravens can comeback after the season with an offer most of us fans think is fair. But what if he doesn't budge?

    What if he says "I'll take my chances in the open market or franchise me"? He will point out that the team canned the OC during week 14 and that the entire 2012 season (on offense) never had a chance etc....

    I honestly believe Flacco was asking for the moon prior to the season. To me that's the only scenario that explains why they are in the situation they are in now. And I don't believe that Flacco's camp is gonna accept alot less than they were asking for 4 months ago.

    And that's gonna be a big problem.

    PP
    Well...(not disagreeing)...but when the Ravens want to run the "it's just business" up the flag pole, everyone supports them. So if Joe's camp chooses to run the "it's just business" up the flag pole, is it any different? Doe Joe OWE the Ravens anything above and beyond giving them the opportunity to give him what other teams would be willing to give him? Not to my way of thinking. So yeah, it's a problem. That's a part of life in the big city.




  4. #79
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    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    Well...(not disagreeing)...but when the Ravens want to run the "it's just business" up the flag pole, everyone supports them. So if Joe's camp chooses to run the "it's just business" up the flag pole, is it any different? Doe Joe OWE the Ravens anything above and beyond giving them the opportunity to give him what other teams would be willing to give him? Not to my way of thinking. So yeah, it's a problem. That's a part of life in the big city.
    Yes but why cripple this team for years just to pay him what he wants? He just doesn't deserve that money, there really is no other way around it, you can go into this and that about Flacco, but the facts are, he just isn't a top 5 QB, end of story. So with that said, why pay Flacco top 5 money when he clearly isn't a top 5 QB? I just don't see how that makes sense.




  5. #80

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    Well...(not disagreeing)...but when the Ravens want to run the "it's just business" up the flag pole, everyone supports them. So if Joe's camp chooses to run the "it's just business" up the flag pole, is it any different? Doe Joe OWE the Ravens anything above and beyond giving them the opportunity to give him what other teams would be willing to give him? Not to my way of thinking. So yeah, it's a problem. That's a part of life in the big city.
    I agree with any team running the "it's just business" approach if a player is asking for top 5 money when he clearly doesn't deserve it.

    Honestly, I don't care what other teams "would" give Flacco. It's pretty easy to find a bunch of horrible QB contracts out there. If Joe Flacco doesn't like or accept what the Ravens feel is a fair offer (which already happened 4 months ago) then he can walk. I'm not saying that's necessarily ideal but neither is overpaying for him.

    There are a bunch of moving parts with this thing. The next 3 (or more) games could swing things as well.

    What we are seeing play out is exactly the reason teams should never let a QB situation get to this.

    PP




  6. #81

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by purplepoe View Post
    I agree with any team running the "it's just business" approach if a player is asking for top 5 money when he clearly doesn't deserve it.

    Honestly, I don't care what other teams "would" give Flacco. It's pretty easy to find a bunch of horrible QB contracts out there. If Joe Flacco doesn't like or accept what the Ravens feel is a fair offer (which already happened 4 months ago) then he can walk. I'm not saying that's necessarily ideal but neither is overpaying for him.

    There are a bunch of moving parts with this thing. The next 3 (or more) games could swing things as well.

    What we are seeing play out is exactly the reason teams should never let a QB situation get to this.

    PP
    I agree. But now that it's AT this point, it's going to just have to play out however it plays out. The bottom line remains...how will the Ravens fare if they decide NOT to pay Joe what he wants? What other options do they have?




  7. #82

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    Yes but why cripple this team for years just to pay him what he wants? He just doesn't deserve that money, there really is no other way around it, you can go into this and that about Flacco, but the facts are, he just isn't a top 5 QB, end of story. So with that said, why pay Flacco top 5 money when he clearly isn't a top 5 QB? I just don't see how that makes sense.
    1. The team has "crippled" itself long before the matter of paying Joe came up
    2. I've already stated that I'm of the opinion that if the team doesn't want to pay Joe what he wants, let him walk.
    3. Assuming the team doesn't want to pay Joe what he wants and Joe walks, where does that leave the Ravens?




  8. #83
    iggyman555 Guest

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    if flacco wants elite money the ravens should pay him what they think hes worth and then joe should sue lee evans for the difference




  9. #84
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    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Leach we don't know what the Ravens offered him.




  10. #85
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    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    But can you win a SB with average play at the QB position? I think you can, Eli Manning did in 2008, Ben Roethlisberger did in 2006 and somewhat in 2009 too.

    Yes offensive competence is important, but I'm not sure if you need an elite QB to have that. Either way, Flacco isn't an elite QB, and probably will never become one, but the general agreement around here is that we can win with Flacco as the starting QB, but need a better supporting cast. Otherwise, we need a new QB if we don't have that supporting cast, because I don't think Flacco will ever be good enough to win us a championship off his arm.

    And to answer your previous question... Johnny Football
    .
    Now I know you're joking. Dude is barely 6' and 200lbs. He doesn't have a big arm at all. He's elusive and makes plays with his feet, but if you think he'd be any better than Flacco in the NFL...I don't know man. I wonder about you sometimes...

    John Manziel is a more athletic Colt McCoy.

    And to answer your question about avg QB play...I think you can win a SB with avg QB play as long as you have a strong supporting cast. You yourself have claimed that Flacco is avg and when he's on he can play up to a good and sometimes great level. So, why can't he win a championship in Baltimore?

    If you're still harping on the financial issue, then you're getting worked up for no reason because frankly there hasn't been a damn word about the contract stuff since the summer. I can guarantee you that Flacco and his agent have come back down to earth big time because this season has not nearly gone the way they had hoped it would.

    How many folks thought that Rice wouldn't sign? He did and for a deal significantly less than what Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson signed for.
    Last edited by wickedsolo; 12-18-2012 at 11:29 PM.
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  11. #86
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    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsfan82 View Post
    I'm at a loss as to why people don't understand your premise. It's like somehow if Flacco does get a 16-18 mil a year contract it would validate that he's "elite". At this point it would not make good business sense to invest that much into him, since he's proven that he cannot carry this team.
    No, people understand his premise fully.

    Most are also agreeing that Flacco's contract needs to be handled efficiently and carefully as it severely impacts the rest of the team (cap wise).

    The problems with this premise is 1) we dont have a damn clue what offer was put on the table over the summer, 2) what Joe and his agent will be looking for after the season because he won't get top tiered money, and 3) no stop-gap QB is going to do any better until they fix the OL and receivers.

    The only way to do those things is through the draft. Plain and simple.

    QB is the hardest position to find. Most teams don't even have an average/above average QB. We do. He isn't going anywhere.
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  12. #87

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    No, people understand his premise fully.

    Most are also agreeing that Flacco's contract needs to be handled efficiently and carefully as it severely impacts the rest of the team (cap wise).

    The problems with this premise is 1) we dont have a damn clue what offer was put on the table over the summer, 2) what Joe and his agent will be looking for after the season because he won't get top tiered money, and 3) no stop-gap QB is going to do any better until they fix the OL and receivers.

    The only way to do those things is through the draft. Plain and simple.

    QB is the hardest position to find. Most teams don't even have an average/above average QB. We do. He isn't going anywhere.
    You say he isn't going anywhere because money isn't an issue. But aren't you failing to take into consideration that even though the Ravens might not be willing to pay top tier money, some OTHER team(s) most likely will. So what's stopping Joe from going elsewhere?




  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    You say he isn't going anywhere because money isn't an issue. But aren't you failing to take into consideration that even though the Ravens might not be willing to pay top tier money, some OTHER team(s) most likely will. So what's stopping Joe from going elsewhere?
    They'll tag him. He's not going anywhere next year
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  14. #89

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    They'll tag him. He's not going anywhere next year
    I get that. But it seemed like W.S. was saying that Joe's camp had come down in their financial expectations and would be asking for less money for a long term deal. That's what I was asking about.




  15. #90
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    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    You say he isn't going anywhere because money isn't an issue. But aren't you failing to take into consideration that even though the Ravens might not be willing to pay top tier money, some OTHER team(s) most likely will. So what's stopping Joe from going elsewhere?
    I have no doubt at all that some other team would absolutely be willing to pay Flacco a ridiculous contract. I'm sure he knows it too. I'd like to think that there are some players who would rather be handsomely paid and play for an organization that cares about winning, but I'm a realist and understand that if a team dangles a $100 million contract in front of a 28 year old Flacco, it is going to be pretty hard to turn down. I get that.

    There is no easy solution around any of this and ultimately, this is the front office's fault. Not Flacco's. The front office botching consecutive drafts has left the cupboards barren at a lot of key positions and as a result they had no choice but to bring back old vets with bloated contracts and the results speak for themselves.

    At the end of the day, the QB position is the hardest to scout, draft, and develop. We've got a pretty good one here. He has his issues, but what athlete doesn't? What QB doesn't go through slumps? I'm sure he is well aware that this season has not gone the way he would have liked. I'm also pretty sure that both he and his agent are intelligent enough to understand that he has played himself out of several millions of dollars. That said, I am also pretty damn positive that Steve Bisciotti is no dummy and has a good memory of what this team was like with crap play from the QB position (and by crap play, I mean Kyle Boller and a noodle-armed Steve McNair). The Ravens organization knows possibly better than anybody how difficult finding even an average to slightly above average QB can be. THAT is why I say that Flacco isn't going anywhere. THAT is also why I say that it is vital for this front office to fix their scouting and drafting woes and surround Flacco with a good supporting cast because even if Flacco does - hopefully - eventually ascend to that upper echelon of QB play on a consistent basis, he is still going to need an OL that can give him time, receivers that can get open, and a defense that can get off the field. Right now, those three things are severely lacking and that is a direct result of poor drafting, poor contract management, and poor development at key positions.

    At the moment, Flacco could already have a deal in place. We don't know. Or, Flacco could have told them to shove it and he'll take his chances in free agency or be tagged because he hates John Harbaugh and wants to pee on Ray Rice's cheerios. We don't know. Or, all parties involved said "this is what we're thinking monetarily, but let's get through this season and revisit this in February?"

    I think the later is the most likely scenario. I also think that if Flacco doesn't sign right away, they will tag him and try to get something hammered out before training camp, which is exactly what happened with Rice last year and I'd say that worked out well for all parties involved.
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