Good stuff from Greg Cosell on Cam after his dismissal

[The Excellector]

It's almost as if some posters see higher quality offenses and think that the QBs simply arrived to capable level of running them on their own. It doesn't work that way. When the New England Patriots were winning Super Bowls, Tom Brady wasn't asked to do much more than what Joe was asked to do. However, when it came time for the team to be built around Brady, they didn't fool around. The offensive line was already good. Then, they said: "We'll give you Welker, because he can be your zig zag guy. Then, we'll give you Randy Moss, so that the defense can't bear down on the zig zag guy." Once Moss left. They said, "We'll now use the zig zag guy as the decoy for these two young TEs were are bringing in. Once the TEs started going through some injuries, they said "We'll use more explosive RBs to take better advantage of some of these running opportunities".

There is a lot that need to go on around the QB. It starts with the offensive line, and works its way around.

[The Excellector]

For those who summarized, thank you. I am grateful for that.

Hmm... While reading those summaries, I wonder about Flacco's internal clock. I thought one of the posters mentioned this, Flacco's "faulty" internal clock may be the result of the scheme. It is difficult to develop an internal clock when 1) the defense knows what you will do and 2) every receivers running vertically for 10+ yards (which was the case on a third down play in the overtime loss). On top of that, the WRs have been taught to "run off" their routes, so it is difficult to know exactly where they will be. I think this is probably why Flacco was able to connect better to Pitta, Boldin and Mason.

My concern is Flacco's internal clock. Can it be salvaged? Will those "bad habits" sink in by now? I think that is the key for Flacco to elevate his game to the next level, IMO.

It can 'somewhat' be salvaged. Joe is the type of QB that operates better when forced to hurry up. It resembles the system he ran at Delaware and many two minute situations we saw him in as a second and third year starter. That's when you start to see the pump fakes, the shuffling of the feet, the better reads.

Even if Jim Caldwell doesn't turn out to be the best play calling, this system that Indianapolis ran is quite possibly the system that tailors itself most to Joe's strengths.

[Paintballguy]

My concern is Flacco's internal clock. Can it be salvaged? Will those "bad habits" sink in by now? I think that is the key for Flacco to elevate his game to the next level, IMO.

I don't think you have to worry about that. I think play calling is going to make a big difference. I think the internal clock thing is way overblown. It's hard to look "fast" when you have all of the receivers running vertical routes and having to wait for them to get open. Cameron's schemes are atrocious. I can't wait to see what Caldwell can do.

[Random Thoughts]

Excellector,

That is a good point about Tom Brady. I think the front office has done a decent job of building the team around Flacco as NE does for its QB. We do it via draft or acquisition. This will catch a heat, but I think our offensive line isn't as bad as advertised. I think our young linemen are well-conditioned enough to run a sugar huddle/no huddle offense, and they sure can wear down defenders (with exception of Gino, perhaps?).

Now that you mentioned, I wonder if the front office is trying to model itself or the team after NE?

[Random Thoughts]

I don't think you have to worry about that. I think play calling is going to make a big difference. I think the internal clock thing is way overblown. It's hard to look "fast" when you have all of the receivers running vertical routes and having to wait for them to get open. Cameron's schemes are atrocious. I can't wait to see what Caldwell can do.

That is true, but I don't think it is as overblown. Flacco has from time to time holding the ball a bit too long. There were some games where he could have gotten rid of the ball quicker to avoid compromising our field goal position. Hell, he could have gotten rid of the ball to avoid a game changing sack/strip. Granted, that the scheme was a contributing factor, but his lack of awareness played a role also.

[RavensRule21215]

Definitely good stuff. Balanced and fair. No scapegoating of anyone. This is the kind of analysis that is needed to help put everything into its proper perspective. Nothing reactionary/knee jerk here. Thanks for the link.

[arnie_uk]

That is true, but I don't think it is as overblown. Flacco has from time to time holding the ball a bit too long. There were some games where he could have gotten rid of the ball quicker to avoid compromising our field goal position. Hell, he could have gotten rid of the ball to avoid a game changing sack/strip. Granted, that the scheme was a contributing factor, but his lack of awareness played a role also.

if your talking about Sunday. On the interception every receiver ran the same route. Straight up then cut to the right. It took three seconds for the recievers on joes left to cut, and he was hit before 3.5 seconds. What do you propose he does?

And on the sack strip, every receiver was blanketed, his target that he was just going to throw up a prayer to, Torrey, had the cb, just a step behind him and a safety over the top.

He had nothing on, if he threw it to any other receiver there was a chance of interceptions because the defense had great position on them all.

He was in mid wind up to Torrey, I can't see any way it would have been complete, he'd have been better turfing it at someone's feet, but then there's zero percent chance of a completion that way, so I guess he thought ill throw a bomb here and maybe get pi, but he just didnt quite get it away. He was less than half a second getting it off I'd say.

Courtesy of all 22 film on nfl gamepass.

[GOTA]

That is true, but I don't think it is as overblown. Flacco has from time to time holding the ball a bit too long. There were some games where he could have gotten rid of the ball quicker to avoid compromising our field goal position. Hell, he could have gotten rid of the ball to avoid a game changing sack/strip. Granted, that the scheme was a contributing factor, but his lack of awareness played a role also.

I agree with you. If you are not going to extend the pocket by moving you need to get rid of the ball quicker. That means throwing it away if no one is open. Matt Stafford is another QB who isn't very mobile. He throws the ball away when no one is open all the time. A couple of season ending injuries will do that to a QB.

Hopefully Caldwell gives Flacco some more options. Cam thought the answer was to bring in extra blockers. If anything that has the opposite effect on speeding up a QB. It gives them less places to throw the ball and a little more time to wait to set things up.

[GirlsKickButt]

I still think the way the WRs have been coached--rounding off routes, etc.--is a huge factor in that. It's not as if we don't have talent at WR.

Could that be why it seems like Flacco is always overthrowing Torrey on those 15-20 yard sideline routes?

I think it's why the WRs are not getting separation.

[Random Thoughts]

if your talking about Sunday. On the interception every receiver ran the same route. Straight up then cut to the right. It took three seconds for the recievers on joes left to cut, and he was hit before 3.5 seconds. What do you propose he does?

And on the sack strip, every receiver was blanketed, his target that he was just going to throw up a prayer to, Torrey, had the cb, just a step behind him and a safety over the top.

He had nothing on, if he threw it to any other receiver there was a chance of interceptions because the defense had great position on them all.

He was in mid wind up to Torrey, I can't see any way it would have been complete, he'd have been better turfing it at someone's feet, but then there's zero percent chance of a completion that way, so I guess he thought ill throw a bomb here and maybe get pi, but he just didnt quite get it away. He was less than half a second getting it off I'd say.

Courtesy of all 22 film on nfl gamepass.

No, I wasn't talking about that particular play. I was referring to Flacco's tendency to hold the ball longer than should, which may have compromised our position on the field (ie: taking us out of the field goal range).

[Raveninwoodlawn]

if your talking about Sunday. On the interception every receiver ran the same route. Straight up then cut to the right. It took three seconds for the recievers on joes left to cut, and he was hit before 3.5 seconds. What do you propose he does?

And on the sack strip, every receiver was blanketed, his target that he was just going to throw up a prayer to, Torrey, had the cb, just a step behind him and a safety over the top.

He had nothing on, if he threw it to any other receiver there was a chance of interceptions because the defense had great position on them all.

He was in mid wind up to Torrey, I can't see any way it would have been complete, he'd have been better turfing it at someone's feet, but then there's zero percent chance of a completion that way, so I guess he thought ill throw a bomb here and maybe get pi, but he just didnt quite get it away. He was less than half a second getting it off I'd say.

Courtesy of all 22 film on nfl gamepass.

Re: the INT...do anything but try and throw a ball with a guy making contact.

There was a lot wrong with that play IMHO...the blitz recognition was very, very poor, there were no adjustments to the WR routes so he could get the ball out. That was the key to the failure of that play. Then IMHO, Joe compounded it by making the worst possible decision of the three he had...1. Eat the ball and take the sack which still would have left us in FG range...2. Throw the ball away immediately when you realize that someone is coming unblocked so you still have your shot at a FG...3. Try and throw over the middle with a defender making contact as you are trying to throw the ball and chance something really bad happening.

[Rxdoxx]

I do find it interesting that he's VERY critical of our wide receivers in addition to the scheme. He said back in 2010 that we had the slowest WR corps in the league and not a single player could beat man coverage. He's still saying that now despite adding a lot of talent and speed with Torrey and Jacoby.

I still think the way the WRs have been coached--rounding off routes, etc.--is a huge factor in that. It's not as if we don't have talent at WR.

IIRC the reason I read rounding off was used was because it is quicker/faster to get to point b.
And while that may be absolutely true, it is also true that rounding off makes it easier for non-elite DBs to stay with a WR. I think of the term "broke his ankles" and how I don't think I have heard that about a Raven WR in ages. (Have heard of Rice but that is during YAC).
I'm coming into agreement that rounded routes sounds good in theory but hurts in practice.
Seems the little bit you lose slowing a WR down you gain in separiting the DB a little more.


@bacchys I find myself thinking if crowd noise is a factor in the difference between Home Joe and Road Joe. But not in the normal/usual way focusing on Road. I'm now wondering if it is home, and with the intense rabid fans here, that in the respectful quiet of offence Joe will hear the decibels sharply go up when a sack is imminent so Joe gets a fan provided alarm system. I know players tune out crowd noise but on some level he has to subconsciously aware of sharp loudness when the crowd sees a free blitzer or a DE with the corner.


@ActualSpamBot Interesting perspective and I find myself buying it. Cam teaches a great college introductery course, but cramps the students ability to grow beyond it (training wheels)
I fully agree on one reading


Thanks all, one of the most informative discussions I have ever seen in a fan forum!