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  1. #73
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    Re: Good stuff from Greg Cosell on Cam after his dismissal



    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    > Flacco has a strong arm, but does not have a good "internal clock".
    > Deeper throws to receivers who are not winning in man coverage = a not-very-mobile QB standing in the pocket waiting for receivers to get open. This leads to the inconsistent results.
    I had previously suggested that the scheme (i.e., forcing Flacco to stand in a pocket and wait for the nine-route to be unfurled) leads to getting hit in the pocket and leads to claims he has no internal clock. I don't know the answer, but I wondered if the playcalling was ignorant of the clock more than Joe was.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    > Can always help receivers vs. man coverage, and what he never saw, were those kinds of things (bunch formations, stack releases, shifts, motion, etc.)
    > Instead saw isolation routes (which required receivers to win their matchups, which they frequently didn't).
    > Suspects that the bunch formations, stack, releases, etc. are in the playbook (all teams have them). So it comes down to how and when to use them, which should be based on game-planning versus an opponent's tendencies and making in-game adjustments..
    This is not a defense of Cam, but I found it curious to hear Derrick Mason's comments on 105.7 FM this morning. When asked if the offense was too vanilla, with the definition suggested by Steve Davis being the same predictable routes over and over again, Mason sort of defended Cam by suggesting that Torrey is limited in the type of routes he can run effectively, and Cam limits the play calling to work within those constraints.

    Maybe Mason is biased/egotistical in thinking few others have his talent to run all the routes in the route tree. Maybe Mason's view is based on a raw Torrey Smith when he was fresh out of college. Maybe he knows something we don't want to admit. (He also mentioned that in his opinion Brian Billick refused to consider the limitations of his receivers and was trying to install the kind of vertical passing attack he favored, without consideration of the fact he had receivers who were not capable of executing it).

    We kind of heard the same suggestion in the past that Joe Flacco was not being allowed to throw between the hashes because Cam didn't think he could be trusted. Eventually that changed, but I do wonder if one of Cam's problems was not trusting his playmakers to make plays. Maybe Cam thought he already knew the negative outcome of going in a certain direction, and was too stubborn to try it. We have been led to believe he wasn't good at receiving input.

    I'd rather he try and fail than never try at all.




  2. #74

    Re: Good stuff from Greg Cosell on Cam after his dismissal

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    I had previously suggested that the scheme (i.e., forcing Flacco to stand in a pocket and wait for the nine-route to be unfurled) leads to getting hit in the pocket and leads to claims he has no internal clock. I don't know the answer, but I wondered if the playcalling was ignorant of the clock more than Joe was.
    I along with others have long railed against this scheme which is based on really long developing routes/QB drops. The infamous "all 9" play call has kind of taken a life of it own...it's called way too much, but it's not called as much as we like to assume...but they are long developing routes. Cam called a lot of double moves, 15 yard in/out and comeback routes...sometimes off of 7 step play action with Joe's back to the defense for up to 2 seconds. Those plays, while they have a place in many offenses, were too much of our base. Cam...and Harbaugh (it remains to be seen if Harbaugh tries to stick with this) were huge proponents of "chunk" plays. All of that hurt Joe.

    That being said, I don't think there is any question Joe doesn't have a great internal clock (it remains to be seen how much this can be improved), blitz recognition (I think this can be improved quite a bit) and ball security (he will need to improve his internal clock to really improve this)


    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    This is not a defense of Cam, but I found it curious to hear Derrick Mason's comments on 105.7 FM this morning. When asked if the offense was too vanilla, with the definition suggested by Steve Davis being the same predictable routes over and over again, Mason sort of defended Cam by suggesting that Torrey is limited in the type of routes he can run effectively, and Cam limits the play calling to work within those constraints.

    Maybe Mason is biased/egotistical in thinking few others have his talent to run all the routes in the route tree. Maybe Mason's view is based on a raw Torrey Smith when he was fresh out of college. Maybe he knows something we don't want to admit. (He also mentioned that in his opinion Brian Billick refused to consider the limitations of his receivers and was trying to install the kind of vertical passing attack he favored, without consideration of the fact he had receivers who were not capable of executing it).

    We kind of heard the same suggestion in the past that Joe Flacco was not being allowed to throw between the hashes because Cam didn't think he could be trusted. Eventually that changed, but I do wonder if one of Cam's problems was not trusting his playmakers to make plays. Maybe Cam thought he already knew the negative outcome of going in a certain direction, and was too stubborn to try it. We have been led to believe he wasn't good at receiving input.

    I'd rather he try and fail than never try at all.
    Regarding Torrey, I don't think he is a very good route runner. I think while he can definitely improve, he isn't a guy who is going to consistently beat his man in man coverage a lot unless it involves pure speed. I think the world of him, but that's why when some people were talking about him becoming a #1 WR, I seriously have my doubts...not a defacto #1, but a real #1.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  3. #75

    Re: Good stuff from Greg Cosell on Cam after his dismissal

    Quote Originally Posted by bensmotorcyclehelmt View Post
    Like you said, Stevie B knows he has to pay Joe. It's just a matter of how much.

    The record and big games have shown that Joe is a good, capable NFL starter (that can play well in tough games) and deserves a new contract.

    Its those inconsistent games that are trying to be figured out.

    The concensus seems to be that Cam, although decent enough, had too strong a personality and role in the offense and may have been the cause for the ups and downs.

    Caldwell is not a proven OC. But he's been around pro football enough and long enough to likely be good enough, possibly VERY good, if he plays to team strengths and rides the hot hand. I imagine this is a move to see what Joe can do with an OC that understands the offense, and is willing to play to the team
    strengths instead of ego.

    Now Steve is letting joe "prove it" to see how flexible he needs to be come contract time.
    Another consideration is that, since our defense can't stop anyone, we have to win on offense. Bisciotti can no longer have a "game manager" as a quarterback. We win or lose with Joe and the offense now.




  4. #76

    Re: Good stuff from Greg Cosell on Cam after his dismissal

    I have to say this is pretty ironic and funny.

    Before the season (when Mike Tomlin was "interviewing" Caldwell) Ravens' fans were laughing and hoping he became the Steelers OC. A bulk of this board was cutting the Steelers down for even considering this guy.

    Now he is the Ravens OC, he's going to be GREEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAT!




  5. #77

    Re: Good stuff from Greg Cosell on Cam after his dismissal

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRob View Post
    I have to say this is pretty ironic and funny.

    Before the season (when Mike Tomlin was "interviewing" Caldwell) Ravens' fans were laughing and hoping he became the Steelers OC. A bulk of this board was cutting the Steelers down for even considering this guy.

    Now he is the Ravens OC, he's going to be GREEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAT!
    Really? I don't recall that at all. Bulk is a lot of people.




  6. #78
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    Re: Good stuff from Greg Cosell on Cam after his dismissal

    Quote Originally Posted by steelerhater View Post
    Another consideration is that, since our defense can't stop anyone, we have to win on offense. Bisciotti can no longer have a "game manager" as a quarterback. We win or lose with Joe and the offense now.
    The other reason the Ravens can no longer have a "game manager" at QB is that Bisciotti has to decide if he is going to pay Flacco what Flacco wants. You don't pay a "game manager" a $100+ million contract. The Ravens offense has to be the explosive offense that we saw in Week 1 on a consistent basis for Flacco to be worthy of such a contract.




  7. #79
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    Re: Good stuff from Greg Cosell on Cam after his dismissal

    so.... we can thank Charlie B-atch and Kirk Cousins for getting rid of Cam? Never really thought of it that way but there's some truth to it.
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  8. #80
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    Re: Good stuff from Greg Cosell on Cam after his dismissal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    The other reason the Ravens can no longer have a "game manager" at QB is that Bisciotti has to decide if he is going to pay Flacco what Flacco wants. You don't pay a "game manager" a $100+ million contract. The Ravens offense has to be the explosive offense that we saw in Week 1 on a consistent basis for Flacco to be worthy of such a contract.
    THIS^^^ it's time to know what we have in Joe, Harbaugh fucked up for keeping that dummy Cam this long into joes career, bad move by Harbaugh I bet thats why his ass may very well be on that hot seat.




  9. #81

    Re: Good stuff from Greg Cosell on Cam after his dismissal

    Is it just me or has anybody else noticed that Joe's blitz recognition in the no huddle is light year's better then it is outside of it? What would you attribute that too, i think he has been damn good setting the right protection in the no huddle but if you look at the Washington game last week there were at least 2 occasions on those corner/safety blitzes where i didnt even see him look to the side where the blitz is coming from. It makes you wonder if that is a control thing, when he's in control he seems to be more cerebral and mindful of the small details and when he wasnt he isnt so much.




  10. #82
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    Re: Good stuff from Greg Cosell on Cam after his dismissal

    Quote Originally Posted by Carey View Post
    Is it just me or has anybody else noticed that Joe's blitz recognition in the no huddle is light year's better then it is outside of it? What would you attribute that too, i think he has been damn good setting the right protection in the no huddle but if you look at the Washington game last week there were at least 2 occasions on those corner/safety blitzes where i didnt even see him look to the side where the blitz is coming from. It makes you wonder if that is a control thing, when he's in control he seems to be more cerebral and mindful of the small details and when he wasnt he isnt so much.
    I think it allows Joe to be more relaxed because he gets to the line with a lot of time left on the play clock. He can set back and read the defense then adjust the play as needed. It's not like Cam has the call in late, and then Flacco has to run up to the line to hike the ball.




  11. #83
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    Re: Good stuff from Greg Cosell on Cam after his dismissal

    Quote Originally Posted by Paintballguy View Post
    I think it allows Joe to be more relaxed because he gets to the line with a lot of time left on the play clock. He can set back and read the defense then adjust the play as needed. It's not like Cam has the call in late, and then Flacco has to run up to the line to hike the ball.
    True, but there were several instances where Flacco had to call a TO because the play came in too late.
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  12. #84
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    Re: Good stuff from Greg Cosell on Cam after his dismissal

    I am now optimistic and I actually feel better knowing that changes are occurring.
    It has dogged us for so long.
    I also believe that has been a large part of the fan frustration here.
    The offense has always seemed to be better than their performance due to being held back in our eyes.
    And knowing nothing was ever going to change for the better, the fans frustration boiled over many times.
    Many times way over the top. I know I was one of them.

    Hearing analysts describe our offensive deficiencies has given us some sort of vindication.
    Now with the change, I feel really good going forward.
    Regardless of the outcome of this game Sunday, I am guessing we want to see the actual signs that change is here.

    For me personally, I want to see Caldwell TRYING to put our guys in the best position to succeed.
    That is what I need to see. Formations and mixed routes to help our receivers gain natural separation.
    Use the no huddle to get Joe into a rhythm and help our Oline tire the defensive front which will slow the rush.

    And I know it is using the rest of the playbook which means there will be miscues and miscommunication from time to time due simply from not using those plays.
    But I remember game 1 against the Bengals.
    And right now, we need to bring THAT playcalling and numerous formations and routes back.
    That is what I want to start seeing.
    We see all of that coming into play and Joe will get more confident with every successful drive.




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