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  1. #31
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens need to be build around Joe Flacco.



    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    If Lee Evans holds onto that ball, we're not having this conversation. So this notion that Joe Flacco cannot carry the team in and through the playoffs isn't completely true. That's my issue with all this talk that Joe isn't this, or isn't that. He was good enough to travel to Foxboro and put the ball in the chest of a receiver in the endzone to win the game.
    Please don't misunderstand me. I have always maintained that Flacco is a good enough QB to win a Super Bowl, provided the rest of the team is also strong. He isn't Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Brees, or Roethisberger though. All of thos QBs have carried their teams to victory despite having major deficiencies in their supporting cast. Look at what Brady and Rodgers have been able to do with no name RB, and WRs (Brady), and terrible defenses. Flacco cannot carry a team the way those players have. The Ravens offense still went through Ray Rice last year. Rice is the top offensive weapon on the Ravens, Flacco is #2. You don't pay the second best offensive weapon on your team $100+ million.




  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    Maybe I am just being cynical, but I don't have as much faith in Flacco as you guys do. I think Flacco is an above average QB, but if you make him the focal point of the offense, I think he will let the team down. IMO, Flacco prospers the most when the offense goes through Ray Rice, and he can use play action to get the ball to his receivers. I think the reason the Ravens offense has not taken off is not because they haven't "let Joe loose", but rather the play calling hasn't played to Flacco's strengths. They have run way too many slow developing, low percentage plays, when Flacco does the best when he gets into a rythmn by running more quck hitting higher percentage plays. The Ravens offense may never be as explosive as the Patriots or Packers offenses, because Flacco isn't as good a QB as Brady or Rodgers. Caldwell can bring elements of the Colts offense to the Ravens, but Flacco isn't Peyton Manning either. However, that doesn't mean that the Ravens offense can't be better than it has been. There is still plenty of room for improvement. I am just afraid that the Ravens are going to try and force Flacco to be something that he isn't to try and justify a new contract.
    I totally agree!!!!!! I just hope the front office don't over pay Joe. We need help on d badly like Ed's n Ray's replacements. We shall see


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  3. #33
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens need to be build around Joe Flacco.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravensnhokies View Post
    Dirt1... Have you've seen Geno Smith and Tyler Wilson play? I like Tyler a little better but neither is remotely capable of what RG3 and Luck can do or even Wilson. Do you want Gabbert or Ponder as our QB? Maybe I'd be wrong with them, but I'd much rather try to refine Flacco in a real offense and see what happens.
    I would rather have Flacco as well. Please don't interpret what I am saying as I don't want Flacco as the Ravens QB. It's just at what price do I want Flacco as the Ravens QB. The Ravens have a lot of holes, and they have a great RB that is signed long term. Given that reality, why not continue to feature the RB, and have the QB be the complimentary player, instead of the QB becoming the focal point of the offense? I am all for tying up a large percentage of the cap in the QB, but only if that QB is a big time difference maker that can carry the team. I just don't think Flacco is good enough to warrant that much cap space. Getting a cheaper option (but a good option) at QB, will allow the Ravens to fill many other holes they have on the team. Honestly, I don't know what Geno Smith or Tyler Wilson could do the Ravens offense. I had never heard of Joe Flacco two months before the Ravens drafted him, and they went to the AFC Championship game in his rookie season (despite a ton of injuries), because the rest of the team was strong.




  4. #34

    Re: The Baltimore Ravens need to be build around Joe Flacco.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jsmoove View Post
    where this team started fucking up with building around flacco was letting jason brown walk, when you draft your franchise QB you build a foundation for him, you want him protected, sure brown wanted center money but his play HERE deserved it. We had that doundation in JG, GRUBBS,BROWN, YANDA AND OHER JG didn't work outr so they should have drafted true LT. This Oline has been a revolving door for so many years, just ask the colts of the early to mid 2000s what consistency on the Oline means, ask Denver too. You need to protect your franchise QB.
    Really Jason Brown? The one who wanted "guard money" to play center. Just curious. Where is he now? Oh he's sitting right at home. From what I've gathered his phone hasn't exactly been ringing of the hook. Cam Cameron is where you need to start when they decided to retain him after the 2010 season.




  5. #35
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens need to be build around Joe Flacco.

    Quote Originally Posted by pslholder96 View Post
    Really Jason Brown? The one who wanted "guard money" to play center. Just curious. Where is he now? Oh he's sitting right at home. From what I've gathered his phone hasn't exactly been ringing of the hook. Cam Cameron is where you need to start when they decided to retain him after the 2010 season.
    Don't bother debating with him about Jason Brown, he is a Jason Brown guy. I have already told him what you just told him, yet he continues to think that not resigning Brown was a huge problem lol. Matt Birk was a good pick up and he was arguably just as good as what Brown was in 08 in 09 and 2010.




  6. #36
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens need to be build around Joe Flacco.

    If you do any reading on Rams forums, you'd find out Jason Brown was a terrible signing by them. Plus look at the fact he's not even playing right now. That says a lot.




  7. #37

    Re: The Baltimore Ravens need to be build around Joe Flacco.

    The title of this thread should read, "The Ravens need to build around Ray Rice."

    He's one of, if not, THE MOST versitile and explosive backs in the NFL. The offense should go through him. Joe hasn't proven he's worthy of building a team around him, IMO.




  8. #38
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens need to be build around Joe Flacco.

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    What do you people expect?

    When were we ever in position to get Flacco a guy like Calvin Johnson? Since Flacco has been here, we have been picking past 20 in every draft, and have had very limited cap space in every year because of the money we are paying a heap of stars we have on this roster.

    If you ask me, Flacco has had it far from rough compared to a lot of other QB's who have been drafted in the first rounds. He has an all pro RB that has bailed him out of many games in the past, as well as relying on a top 5 defense every year up to this year. He did have Todd Heap who was a very good tight end even in 08 09 and 2010, and had D Mason, as well as Boldin since 2010 (both former pro bowl players). The main issue is the Oline, which is the one thing our FO has not done a good job of retaining. I think this offseason should be spent rebuilding the Oline, and I have said this in literally every draft/offseason thread.

    The Oline is IMO the only hole on this offense. I guess we could have a guy like Calvin Johnson at WR, but do you realize how hard it is to get guys like that?
    I said the same shit just now, the Oline is the foundation for flacco's succes. A good Oline and a good QB flacco can make any wideout look like a star.




  9. #39

    Re: The Baltimore Ravens need to be build around Joe Flacco.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    It's a darn shame that it's taken five years for them to even begin to figure that out. When you look at all of the top quarterbacks in the league, they are surrounded by personnel dedicated to making them the best quarterbacks in the league. The vast majority of them have teams built around them and their talents. From system, to philosophy, to talent.

    Teams have decided to push to make their QBs great and live and die with their leadership.

    Here? No sir. Usually, when a QB is drafted in the first round, there is an asserted effort to build the team around that QB, who likely becomes the face of the franchise.

    We already had one of those here and his name is Ray Lewis. So, when Joe showed up, he was asked to not screw things up for the defense, while they relied on the running game again and again.

    Fives years of this. Well, guess what, Ray can't do it like he used to and this defense isn't doing it like they used to and the Ravens got caught with their pants down.

    They might as well accept the fact that Joe Flacco will be the new face of the franchise and make a LEGITIMATE EFFORT, to build the team around him.

    It gets on my nerves when I hear this talk about how, "Joe will never be elite" and "It's been five years, he'll never change".

    Nobody can honestly sit here with a straight face and say that the Ravens have made a serious effort to build the team around Joe Flacco. His head coach hasn't, his coordinator hasn't, it took them FOUR YEARS to draft a WR of Torrey Smith's caliber. Joe was basically stuck with Mason and not much else, passing wise, for three years. His offensive lines have gone down the drain. They take the ball out of his hands at darn near every little mistake. Yet, suddenly ask him to pull it out at the last minute.

    I will say it. Joe Flacco's inconsistency starts with the inconsistent support his development has received from the front office.

    It is completely unfair to judge this man, compared to QBs who have enjoyed far stronger support and commitment from their front offices, before he gets the same luxury.

    This should have been done two years ago, but everybody swore that defense and running the ball would do the trick. Only for the playoffs to show up, Joe to have to make the throws, only to make them and have em' dropped, as if he's bringing a knife to a gun fight, which he is.

    For four years, we sat here and talked about how Joe hardly ever saw a completed pass that wasn't perfectly placed. Meanwhile, Welker is snatching anything low, high and indifferent. Calvin Johnson is beating freakin triple coverage in the red zone.

    The fact that Joe Flacco has accomplished as much as he has, given the circumstances, is impressive if you ask me.

    Build an offensive system around him, give him a line and give him multiple WRs that can scare a defense.

    Watch what happens.




  10. #40

    Re: The Baltimore Ravens need to be build around Joe Flacco.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    Please don't misunderstand me. I have always maintained that Flacco is a good enough QB to win a Super Bowl, provided the rest of the team is also strong. He isn't Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Brees, or Roethisberger though. All of thos QBs have carried their teams to victory despite having major deficiencies in their supporting cast. Look at what Brady and Rodgers have been able to do with no name RB, and WRs (Brady), and terrible defenses. Flacco cannot carry a team the way those players have. The Ravens offense still went through Ray Rice last year. Rice is the top offensive weapon on the Ravens, Flacco is #2. You don't pay the second best offensive weapon on your team $100+ million.
    Wes Welker is a no name WR? Gronkowski? Hernandez? The best OL of the past decade? Yeah, okay. Brady sure has no talent around him!

    Of the QBs you mentioned (Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Brees, Roethlisberger) ALL of them have a ton of help. Brady, I already mentioned. Rodgers has the best WR corps in the NFL and one of the best play-callers in the league. Peyton Manning has never played a down without an incredible supporting cast (Harrison, Wayne, Edge James, Dallas Clark, and now Eric Decker and Demaryius Thomas). Brees has Jimmy Graham, Colston, a stable of great RBs, and a good OL (and he's still struggling this year partly because they aren't getting their running game going). Roethlisberger has had top 5 defenses and a good supporting cast on offense.

    I think you'd be very hard pressed to say that the Ravens OL, WR, and TE personnel are top 10 for their position in the NFL. I'm not even sure WR and TE are even in the top half of the league in terms of production and upside. Yes, the Ravens have a top 5 RB but he's been underused and misused far too much. And when they try to run the offense exclusively through him, it's just too easy for defenses to key in on him and shut him down.




  11. #41
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens need to be build around Joe Flacco.

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    If Lee Evans holds onto that ball, we're not having this conversation. So this notion that Joe Flacco cannot carry the team in and through the playoffs isn't completely true. That's my issue with all this talk that Joe isn't this, or isn't that. He was good enough to travel to Foxboro and put the ball in the chest of a receiver in the endzone to win the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Silver View Post
    Coupled with that game winning drive in Pittsburgh last year, I am dumbfounded people even suggest Joe can't get it done. Get him another second in the pocket, toss in some slants and screens, we have a deadly QB.


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  12. #42
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens need to be build around Joe Flacco.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crean N Crimson View Post
    The title of this thread should read, "The Ravens need to build around Ray Rice."

    He's one of, if not, THE MOST versitile and explosive backs in the NFL. The offense should go through him. Joe hasn't proven he's worthy of building a team around him, IMO.

    Please see posts 25 and 26.
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  13. #43
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens need to be build around Joe Flacco.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Wes Welker is a no name WR? Gronkowski? Hernandez? The best OL of the past decade? Yeah, okay. Brady sure has no talent around him!

    Of the QBs you mentioned (Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Brees, Roethlisberger) ALL of them have a ton of help. Brady, I already mentioned. Rodgers has the best WR corps in the NFL and one of the best play-callers in the league. Peyton Manning has never played a down without an incredible supporting cast (Harrison, Wayne, Edge James, Dallas Clark, and now Eric Decker and Demaryius Thomas). Brees has Jimmy Graham, Colston, a stable of great RBs, and a good OL (and he's still struggling this year partly because they aren't getting their running game going). Roethlisberger has had top 5 defenses and a good supporting cast on offense.

    I think you'd be very hard pressed to say that the Ravens OL, WR, and TE personnel are top 10 for their position in the NFL. I'm not even sure WR and TE are even in the top half of the league in terms of production and upside. Yes, the Ravens have a top 5 RB but he's been underused and misused far too much. And when they try to run the offense exclusively through him, it's just too easy for defenses to key in on him and shut him down.
    Brady and Manning are rarely sacked. Is that because their offensive lines are incredible, or because the QB is decisive and gets the ball out fast? How good is Wes Welker away from Brady? Brady still had a great offense when he was throwing the ball to a slew of ex- Florida Gator WRs who couldn't catch on anywhere else. Also, who have the Patriots had at RB? Danny Woodhead? Really? How good has the Steelers OL been for years? They have been pretty bad, but the Steelers continued to have very good offenses. For the last time, I think Flacco is a very good QB, who is good enough to win a Super Bowl with, but if the Ravens pay him what he wants, he is not good enough to make up for lesser talent that they will have in other areas due to the percentage of the cap that he will command.




  14. #44

    Re: The Baltimore Ravens need to be build around Joe Flacco.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crean N Crimson View Post
    The title of this thread should read, "The Ravens need to build around Ray Rice."

    He's one of, if not, THE MOST versitile and explosive backs in the NFL. The offense should go through him. Joe hasn't proven he's worthy of building a team around him, IMO.
    We don't have the necessarily build the offense around Flacco or Rice. We can build around both as improving the OL should also help Rice. Plus we can build an offense around Flacco where Rice is a huge part of that because Rice is versatile and very dangerous in the passing game as well. A more spread out offense can also benefit Rice as he has more open space to work with in the run game as well as after he catches the ball. Look at NE this year. Ridley and their running backs are carrying the ball a lot this season and doing pretty well while Brady is benefiting from that in the passing game.




  15. #45
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens need to be build around Joe Flacco.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    Brady and Manning are rarely sacked. Is that because their offensive lines are incredible, or because the QB is decisive and gets the ball out fast? How good is Wes Welker away from Brady? Brady still had a great offense when he was throwing the ball to a slew of ex- Florida Gator WRs who couldn't catch on anywhere else. Also, who have the Patriots had at RB? Danny Woodhead? Really? How good has the Steelers OL been for years? They have been pretty bad, but the Steelers continued to have very good offenses. For the last time, I think Flacco is a very good QB, who is good enough to win a Super Bowl with, but if the Ravens pay him what he wants, he is not good enough to make up for lesser talent that they will have in other areas due to the percentage of the cap that he will command.
    Does it matter?

    It is a symbiotic relationship.

    A stout OL gives the QB time, which gives the receivers time to get open. If the receivers get open quickly, then the QB can get the ball out quicker, so the OL doesn't have to sustain blocks for as long. If the QB gets the ball out quicker, then the receivers have more opportunities to make a play after the catch because the defensive players are still reacting.

    Everything effects everything.

    Brady is VERY good at getting the ball out quickly, but for many, many, many years he rarely got touched and it didn't matter how long he held onto the ball. In fact, the first time they played the Giants in the SB that was one of the biggest reasons why Brady looked so uncomfortable. He couldn't get the ball out at all because the Giants' DL was all over him.

    I don't think Flacco is ever going to be a Brady or a Peyton, but he doesn't have to be...and I don't think you'd disagree with that either. Flacco is good enough to build an offense around and he is good enough to win a SB. He's led this team back several times from deficits to win games, he's played extremely well in the spotlight, and he's functioned far better in Cam's system than a lot of other QB's have.

    If the Ravens run a balanced offense and use Rice properly, then the routes will open up. Flacco can get the ball out quickly, but it is hard to get the ball out quickly when your primary receivers are running go routes and can't get open.
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