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  1. #157
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    Re: So is Flacco on the hot seat now, or is it Harbaugh?



    I love how memes that feed into certain fan's preconceptions just skip the fact checking phase on this board sometimes. Examples:

    Harbs has a dog house and benches viable players out of spite.
    Harbs only hires family friends.
    Bisciotti, not Harbs, chose to fire Cam.
    Harbs is on the hot seat.
    Joe wants a top 5 contract.
    Ray Rice wants Adrian Peterson money.

    etc etc etc.

    Some of those things MAY be true. Some are flat out provably false. But there is a subset of very vocal posters who treat them as verified facts, often to the detriment of a reasonable conversation.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  2. #158

    Re: So is Flacco on the hot seat now, or is it Harbaugh?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Because he has been a beacon of legitimate information?

    Come on man...any one of us could have strung that theory together. Hell, a lot of folks on this board have been stating those things for a few years now.
    Usually you are bitter with a need to be right. Look, this is what has been swirling around for a while, my Raven ex-player inside source and family freind who covers the Ravens usually gives me nuggets. Do I know everything is 100% accurate, no. More often it is than it isn't. Being a MD Booster and Alumn and Raven PSL holder and former college position coach with an ex-Colt who is still alive gives you certain benefits I admit. I am not a fan as much of the NFL product as it been stripped of being actual football and dont get overly invested in success or failure of the Ravens. I am more interested in the organizatonal structure and what goes on behind the scenes and what decisions are made for what reasons I find more intriguing. One thing I know about Biscuit is he is a self made BILLIONAIRE and thinks outside the box and isn't affraid to make changes. Self made Billionaires aren't happy with being better than average, they are driven by challenge and to be the BEST. Not being the best or striving to be is failure.




  3. #159

    Re: So is Flacco on the hot seat now, or is it Harbaugh?

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    I love how memes that feed into certain fan's preconceptions just skip the fact checking phase on this board sometimes. Examples:

    Harbs has a dog house and benches viable players out of spite.
    Harbs only hires family friends.
    Bisciotti, not Harbs, chose to fire Cam.
    Harbs is on the hot seat.
    Joe wants a top 5 contract.
    Ray Rice wants Adrian Peterson money.

    etc etc etc.

    Some of those things MAY be true. Some are flat out provably false. But there is a subset of very vocal posters who treat them as verified facts, often to the detriment of a reasonable conversation.
    Like there is a way to fact check "OPINION" on a message board. I'll go flat on record, one of the Raven's brothers a few years back is a friend of mine and was my trainer. A LOT of what I hear, read, and see on here has been said among players. No, I didn't hear things EVER directly from a player, but they have friends and relatives around here. Word gets out no matter how you want to throw up shields defending the Ravens.

    Of course Harbaugh has a doghouse, show me a coach who doesn't? It's called the BENCH. McKinnie's fat ass is in the dog house for showing up looking like he ate himself. How long a player is in the doghouse is reflective of their work ethic. I have a problem with Harbaugh's because I think at times it hurts the team, McKinnie is a better option than Oher in many instances.

    Harbs HAS hired a lot of family friends. Mattison is universally agreed to be a BAD hire that was a family friend. DON'T EVEN TRY to back off that one.

    The Titanic was sunk because metal rivets got sheared off and it took on water in more compartments than it could handle. Oh yeah, their was that big ICEBERG it hit too. Same with Cam, Harbaugh for his sake got to fire Cam, but if you think Steve had zero input into prodding this into motion before doling out a king's ransom for Joe's next contract knowing he was at odds with Cam, you really have ostrich syndrome.

    Of course Harbaugh is on the hot seat! Every NFL pundit in the world has said, there goes the buffer. Cam got all the blame for the team's woes most of the past five years. Joe Flacco isn't going to be canned. Not when you have coaches out their unemployed who have done masterful jobs with other quarterbacks.

    Joe want's top 5? I don't know about that, but I'd say he wants top 10. Even if he does want top 5, why is it a big deal for argument sake? Always ask high and at least you'll get more in the end. I don't see anything wrong with that line of thinking.

    Ray Rice wants Adrian Peterson money. Yes, I saw that a lot. But I also saw the same people, including me say IF he wanted Peterson money, he could walk.

    The only reasonable conversation I see with you seems to be when someone agrees with you. When they don't, differing opinions of yours are termed 'detrimental'?

    Welcome to the internet.




  4. #160

    Re: So is Flacco on the hot seat now, or is it Harbaugh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    I am not sure what people mean by "hot seat," but under the standard definition, Harbaugh is nowhere near one let alone on one. Might Bisciotti have put his foot down on Cameron? Sure. Might Bisciotti have expressed some concerns or worries or disappointment with some of the team efforts this year. Sure. And of course neither such thing may have happened, nobody knows. But even if they did, that does not equal "hot seat."

    Hot seat means things are universally known to be headed in the wrong direction. The coach's performance has been universally known to be unacceptable. Things must change quickly and drastically for the better or else the coach will likely be fired. That is what "hot seat" means to me. And it doesn't apply here. Nor do I see it applying anytime soon barring a bottom-quintile finish in next year's season.
    Agreed.

    Two tough defeats. First consecutive defeats in more than 3 seasons and Harbaugh is not anywhere near the hot seat, unless our owner suddenly becames the next Irsay.

    9-4.. few plays from 12-1, (I know or 3-10).

    If anyone before the season told me we were 9-4, and without Ray, Suggs, Webb, Jimmy and Ngata who has not been playing like we like him to play, and now we ended last game with a completely different linebackers corps, reserves of the reserve.

    And an offense who did not take the next step. Even with all that bs. Here we are 9-4!

    Lets not kid ourselves this is not how you get rid off your HC. That is naive.




  5. #161

    Re: So is Flacco on the hot seat now, or is it Harbaugh?

    Quote Originally Posted by elland View Post
    Agreed.

    Two tough defeats. First consecutive defeats in more than 3 seasons and Harbaugh is not anywhere near the hot seat, unless our owner suddenly becames the next Irsay.

    9-4.. few plays from 12-1, (I know or 3-10).

    If anyone before the season told me we were 9-4, and without Ray, Suggs, Webb, Jimmy and Ngata who has not been playing like we like him to play, and now we ended last game with a completely different linebackers corps, reserves of the reserve.

    And an offense who did not take the next step. Even with all that bs. Here we are 9-4!

    Lets not kid ourselves this is not how you get rid off your HC. That is naive.
    Well, I didn't start the thread with the title "Hot seat", but the theme of the discussion is with Cam gone, who's job is more in jeopardy? John Harbaugh or Joe Flacco. I think with the evidence that has been presented and the fact that winning coaches have been fired by other NFL teams means to me that Harbaugh's seat is a lot hotter than Joe Cool's.




  6. #162

    Re: So is Flacco on the hot seat now, or is it Harbaugh?

    For years I've felt that Andy Reid (not totally unlike Jeff Fisher) had over stayed his welcome. (maybe even Cowher as well.) So the real question is -- if you had a crystal ball and could see into the future, even though a coach has a winning record, if he possesses a "play not to lose" mindset, which I think applies to both Reid and Harbaugh, do you just keep that coach on beyond his expiration date, or do you cut your losses sooner rather than later. I suppose it all depends on what your overall goal is. If it's consistency and playoff appearances, then you keep him on, and end up stuck in the Marty Schottenheimer syndrome. If your goal is to win championships, then you replace him with someone with a more fearless approach, even if that means sometimes you miss the playoffs. I think there was a thread here a while back talking about that very subject -- which would you prefer, a consistent team that never got beyond the playoffs, or a more up/down team that at least had a more legitimate shot at a super bowl. It's a matter of personal preference, I suppose. As far as who is on the hot seat between Harbaugh and Flacco, at this point, I'd say neither one. I don't think either one is going anywhere soon. And even though I'm not a huge Harbaugh fan, I'm not sure he should be shown the door. At least not yet. I do, however, have a major problem with his choice of assistants, and that ultimately might be his undoing.




  7. #163

    Re: So is Flacco on the hot seat now, or is it Harbaugh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boulderraven View Post
    Then Biscuit fired Cam. Biscuit is mad cause Harbaugh got the Ravens into this mess and had no power over Cameron more importantly...many players know this and he is less respected in the locker-room. Is is true? IDK?
    As I said on Monday, this smacks of a panic move by the organization. Whenever you fire a coach mid-season (or late season, in this case) the results can often be negligible: you still have the same playbook, and the same players, and in this case, the same head coach. Change will not occur overnight. So why was it done now (as opposed to the off-season) and in this manner? It doesn't speak to a rational, thought-out decision. It speaks to one that is a "gut instinct" decision at best, borne out of frustration and anger at a couple of close defeats, at worst. I am not arguing whether it was a good or bad decision, sometimes gut decisions are the correct decisions (Bisciotti's decision to fire Billick after promising to give him 1 more year, for instance). I only question the effect this decision has on the remainder of the season as it relates to Harbaugh's "voice" in the locker-room.

    As I also said on Monday, the best scenario for this change would have been the players going to Harbaugh and demanding a change. Him listening to them and throwing his friend overboard would earn/reinforce their respect for him in the locker-room. I heard reports that the players were not happy with Cameron's offense, but I never got the sense that this change came from the bottom-up. Flacco being "shocked" by the move tells me all I need to know where this decision came from.

    The "we have been discussing this move since the first Steelers game" and the BS questions from the Ravens employee at the press conference: "John, when did you make this decision?" Harbaugh's answers and demeanor at his press conference lead me to believe this was a decision that was forced down on him by ownership. That cuts right to the authority of the coach in the locker-room. And when that is is compromised, it rarely ever goes back together. I do believe that the players - especially Rice, Flacco and Boldin - have been frustrated with Cameron for a long time. Basically, this is ownership telling a head-coach, "if you are not going to listen to your players, I will." Ouch.

    I wouldn't have believed it 2 weeks ago, but I feel that Harbaugh is in fact now on the hot seat.

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    I think there was a thread here a while back talking about that very subject -- which would you prefer, a consistent team that never got beyond the playoffs, or a more up/down team that at least had a more legitimate shot at a super bowl. It's a matter of personal preference, I suppose.
    If only those were the 2 choices. Jerry Jones threw is multiple SB winning coach over the side in the mid-90s. Yes, he won one more SB the next year (which he most certainly would have won with the first coach), and then proceeded to not win another playoff game for 14 seasons, much less have a legitimate shot at the Super Bowl. Be careful what you wish for....
    Last edited by JohnBKistler; 12-14-2012 at 10:08 AM.




  8. #164
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    Re: So is Flacco on the hot seat now, or is it Harbaugh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boulderraven View Post
    One peice I did not mention because of I didn't think it relevant for this thread, but leads me to it.
    Biscuit and members of the coaching staff where unhappy that they had to rush the FG kicker to kick the tying FG at NE. Some people blame Cundiff rightly so, but a chinese fire drill game for a tying FG should not be a kaos play, especially when you have a timeout. Problem is Cundiff took full blame, but also did not know he had a timeout to call, the coach did. Harbs should of settled down that situation as crucial as it was to restore order. That didn't sit well. Add to that, Biscuit and others where angry that Boldin was not targeted at the end of the game more because he was covered by a small WR named Edelman. Peices I heard from the same beat guy, who can't release these inside nuggets leaked from players and so forth or he wouldnt be a beat guy.
    I have always blamed Harbaugh for the missed FG, not Cundiff because Harbs did not call the time out, causing the rush onto the field. It was poor coaching at the worst time. If he calls that timeout, I believe we would have gone to the Super Bowl.




  9. #165
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    Re: So is Flacco on the hot seat now, or is it Harbaugh?

    Quote Originally Posted by GirlsKickButt View Post
    I have always blamed Harbaugh for the missed FG, not Cundiff because Harbs did not call the time out, causing the rush onto the field. It was poor coaching at the worst time. If he calls that timeout, I believe we would have gone to the Super Bowl.
    I think John tries to build those TO's for another game.




  10. #166
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    Re: So is Flacco on the hot seat now, or is it Harbaugh?

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    I think there was a thread here a while back talking about that very subject -- which would you prefer, a consistent team that never got beyond the playoffs, ora more up/down team that at least had a more legitimate shot at a super bowl.
    False dichotomy. The idea that streaky hit or miss teams are more likely to win the Superbowl than consistent playoff contenders is majorly flawed. Look at the AFC alone. Since 2001, the only teams to represent the AFC in the Superbowl have been Indy, Pitt, New England and Oakland (in a one time appearance in 2002.) That shows me CLEARLY beyond a shadow of a doubt that the way to break into the Superbowl club is to model one's franchise after those teams. Which means very infrequent head coach turnover, designing one's offense around your QB's talents, and winning your division.

    That's how you win it all. Not the Brian Billick "Get hot, flame out, lather rinse repeat" approach that many of you seem to imagine working.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  11. #167
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    Re: So is Flacco on the hot seat now, or is it Harbaugh?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    As I also said on Monday, the best scenario for this change would have been the players going to Harbaugh and demanding a change. Him listening to them and throwing his friend overboard would earn/reinforce their respect for him in the locker-room. I heard reports that the players were not happy with Cameron's offense, but I never got the sense that this change came from the bottom-up. Flacco being "shocked" by the move tells me all I need to know where this decision came from....
    I think it did come from the players (and Biscuit too). I think Flacco was shocked because Harbs actually listened to their input and pulled the trigger before the season ended.




  12. #168

    Re: So is Flacco on the hot seat now, or is it Harbaugh?

    Quote Originally Posted by GirlsKickButt View Post
    I have always blamed Harbaugh for the missed FG, not Cundiff because Harbs did not call the time out, causing the rush onto the field. It was poor coaching at the worst time. If he calls that timeout, I believe we would have gone to the Super Bowl.
    This is a major problem with Harbaugh. Considering he is not an X's and O's guy and his role is primarily limited to motivation and executive management, the only things he needs to get right on game day are challenges, clock management, and overall coordination. He is horrible at all 3 of those things and has never improved.

    It's puzzling how poor Harbaugh's feel for the game of football is overall. It sounds like I'm being very critical of him, and I don't mean to be--he does a lot of things within his responsibility well. But he's got to show some improvement in these areas very quickly.




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