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  1. #3049

    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)



    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    I don't agree with that at all...Jones is a solid player, but I don't put a ton of stock in those college awards...it's in large part a popularity contest no different than all star game selections. And they really are not much of an indication of who is the most talented or best for the pros.

    Warmack, Flucker, and Kouandjio will all be selected before Jones...they are all significantly more physically talented than Jones. That doesn't mean that they necessarily will all definitely have better pro careers, but no GM in his right mind would take Jones over any of those 3 guys.
    You are moving the goalposts. You didn't say "Jones will be the 4th player selected in the NFL draft from Alabama's OL." You said he's the 4th BEST PLAYER, and that's not true. Positional value is as relevant as overall talent in determining draft picks... and no matter how good Jones is, he's probably going to play interior OL in the NFL and interior linemen don't get picked before tackles unless they are seen as future All-Pro players. Even then sometimes they drop like David DeCastro did last year; he was seen as a top-10 prospect on the big board but fell way down into the 20's because of the lack of positional value of interior OL.

    All I can tell you is you gotta watch the tape. Jones has earned every bit of accolades he's received over his time at Alabama. Warmack is definitely a better prospect as he's a top-5 overall player on the big board, but I don't agree with Fluker; he's a RT only who allowed like 9 sacks last year. He's a phenomenal run blocker admittedly but not better than Jones. I don't see how you can say Fluker is a better player than Jones when Jones actually played LT at a higher level in 2011 than Fluker has ever played RT. When you compare them apples-to-apples, Jones is a better player, and that's not even taking into consideration his positional versatility and intangibles. Kouandjio is a freak prospect, but he's only 19 years old and a true freshman. He had a great year, but I'm not ready to really talk about him comparatively. I believe he also gave up quite a few sacks this year.

    You are correct that all 3 will probably be selected before Jones and that all 3 are more physically talented than Jones. But being a good NFL player isn't all about physical talent and it's not all about draft position. I think Warmack will be a very good player, Fluker will probably be good but has some bust potential, and like I said who knows with Kouandjio. But Barrett Jones is one of the SAFEST picks in the entire draft. Somebody taking him in the 2nd round is going to get basically a higher-upside Nick Mangold who will start 10+ years in the NFL and make several Pro Bowls. I think there's even an outside chance that he's playing LT in the NFL at a high level in a few years.




  2. #3050

    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    I've read a lot of pundits say it will be harder for a team to trade down from a top pick because no one wants to move up this year due to lack of elite talent.

    However, on the flip side, if you have a guy you really like, you could view it as costing less than it would normally cost. Since the demand for a top 10 pick isn't as high as normal, the cost of acquiring that pick should be lower than in year's past.

    Any discount still probably won't be enough to sway someone into moving up...unless they really really like a guy.




  3. #3051

    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    You are moving the goalposts. You didn't say "Jones will be the 4th player selected in the NFL draft from Alabama's OL." You said he's the 4th BEST PLAYER, and that's not true. Positional value is as relevant as overall talent in determining draft picks... and no matter how good Jones is, he's probably going to play interior OL in the NFL and interior linemen don't get picked before tackles unless they are seen as future All-Pro players. Even then sometimes they drop like David DeCastro did last year; he was seen as a top-10 prospect on the big board but fell way down into the 20's because of the lack of positional value of interior OL.

    All I can tell you is you gotta watch the tape. Jones has earned every bit of accolades he's received over his time at Alabama. Warmack is definitely a better prospect as he's a top-5 overall player on the big board, but I don't agree with Fluker; he's a RT only who allowed like 9 sacks last year. He's a phenomenal run blocker admittedly but not better than Jones. I don't see how you can say Fluker is a better player than Jones when Jones actually played LT at a higher level in 2011 than Fluker has ever played RT. When you compare them apples-to-apples, Jones is a better player, and that's not even taking into consideration his positional versatility and intangibles. Kouandjio is a freak prospect, but he's only 19 years old and a true freshman. He had a great year, but I'm not ready to really talk about him comparatively. I believe he also gave up quite a few sacks this year.

    You are correct that all 3 will probably be selected before Jones and that all 3 are more physically talented than Jones. But being a good NFL player isn't all about physical talent and it's not all about draft position. I think Warmack will be a very good player, Fluker will probably be good but has some bust potential, and like I said who knows with Kouandjio. But Barrett Jones is one of the SAFEST picks in the entire draft. Somebody taking him in the 2nd round is going to get basically a higher-upside Nick Mangold who will start 10+ years in the NFL and make several Pro Bowls. I think there's even an outside chance that he's playing LT in the NFL at a high level in a few years.
    I'm not moving the goalposts because we are talking about the NFL draft here. This entire thread is about offseason NFL pickups/moves. This thread isn't about handing out college player awards.

    So to all that, yes when I say there are 3 better players on that Alabama OL...the same OL that people are saying is basically an NFL line, I consider guys who are more talented and are universally looked at as better players by NFL people to be better players.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  4. #3052
    iggyman555 Guest

    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    wow this guy is unreal, hope he goes to an NFC team





  5. #3053

    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    I'm not moving the goalposts because we are talking about the NFL draft here. This entire thread is about offseason NFL pickups/moves. This thread isn't about handing out college player awards.

    So to all that, yes when I say there are 3 better players on that Alabama OL...the same OL that people are saying is basically an NFL line, I consider guys who are more talented and are universally looked at as better players by NFL people to be better players.
    So answer this question then: because most media people have Fluker going before Jones in their 2013 mock drafts, does that mean Fluker is a better player than Jones? Because that seems to be the direction you're going with your argument. I can only point you toward the argument I already made that because of positional value worse players at more important positions get selected over better players at less important positions. I'm also not sure how you're getting a "universal" opinion from "NFL people" on this issue. I would love to be plugged into NFL personnel the way you are!

    I'm not really including Kouandjio in the comparison as he's not a 2013 prospect, and we agree that Warmack is the best player on that OL, so this really comes down to DJ Fluker, ultimately, on whom we may have a simple difference of opinion. I think you're plugging into a lot of the hype that's getting drummed up now around Fluker, but if you go back and watch his tape he got beaten a lot in pass-blocking. He is your prototypical run-blocking mauler at RT who will get beaten for sacks all day long. I still think he's a good player, but I don't think he's as good of a prospect as Barrett Jones. If we have a difference of opinion on that, so be it.




  6. #3054
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    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by iggyman555 View Post
    wow this guy is unreal, hope he goes to an NFC team

    Fuck that, I hope he goes to the Ravens.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  7. Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    We got to bring him home to Harm City. That is one sick highlight reel. Austin has Barry Sanders feet. That looked like Marshall Faulk SDst highlights, but the entire season highlight package, not just one game.

    He is still a RB at heart, but now he has WR game. I was looking at him more like a DeSean Jackson type, but he is much more physical like Percy Harvin. With all the picks we have I am now thinking trade up into the 20s to get Austin if he is still there.







  8. #3056

    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    So answer this question then: because most media people have Fluker going before Jones in their 2013 mock drafts, does that mean Fluker is a better player than Jones? Because that seems to be the direction you're going with your argument. I can only point you toward the argument I already made that because of positional value worse players at more important positions get selected over better players at less important positions. I'm also not sure how you're getting a "universal" opinion from "NFL people" on this issue. I would love to be plugged into NFL personnel the way you are!

    I'm not really including Kouandjio in the comparison as he's not a 2013 prospect, and we agree that Warmack is the best player on that OL, so this really comes down to DJ Fluker, ultimately, on whom we may have a simple difference of opinion. I think you're plugging into a lot of the hype that's getting drummed up now around Fluker, but if you go back and watch his tape he got beaten a lot in pass-blocking. He is your prototypical run-blocking mauler at RT who will get beaten for sacks all day long. I still think he's a good player, but I don't think he's as good of a prospect as Barrett Jones. If we have a difference of opinion on that, so be it.
    To answer your question, yes I think Fluker is a better player than Jones and it's not just because of some media personel have him going earlier...I think he more athletic, stronger, and has better feet than Jones...and that's just going on what I've seen. I've watched at least 7 Alabama games...mostly because I was drooling over CJ Mosely, but I never thought all that highly of Jones physical skill set.

    As to the the college awards stuff...that doesn't mean anything to me. College football history if filled to the brim of outstanding college players who couldn't hack it at the next level because of physical limitations. Hell the Heisman Award has been awarded to outstanding players like Eric Crouch, Tim Tebow, Troy Smith, Jason White, Charlie Ward...etc. They don't mean anything other than in college, they were good players.

    As to a "universal opinion" of course I don't know that, but I do know that the few media guys who everybody knows has quality NFL contacts feel that Jones will be the third Bama lineman taken and feel that Kouandijo will be a first round pick as well.

    So let's backup a bit here...this is a simple difference of opinion. You obviously really like Jones. I like him as I think he is an NFL player, but obvioulsy not to the extent that you do. I made a statement of where I think he belongs in regards to the rest of the Alabama OL...I apologize if I didn't put IMHO in there. But I definately feel my opinion has a lot of merit, and even if you and others don't agree (which we all have our right to...and all of us are giving just that...opinions), I don't think in any way was my statement "boarderline ridiculous".
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  9. #3057

    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah W View Post
    We got to bring him home to Harm City. That is one sick highlight reel. Austin has Barry Sanders feet. That looked like Marshall Faulk SDst highlights, but the entire season highlight package, not just one game.

    He is still a RB at heart, but now he has WR game. I was looking at him more like a DeSean Jackson type, but he is much more physical like Percy Harvin. With all the picks we have I am now thinking trade up into the 20s to get Austin if he is still there.
    Percy Harvin is a good comparison IMHO...Austin is significantly smaller, but brings a lot of the same shifty, versatile skillset that Harvin did.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  10. #3058

    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    Consider me all in on the idea of Teo playing for the Ravens. Around this time last year I would've laughed if u said this was possible. I hope he continues to drop right to 32. Also, Margus Hunt is intriguing. He could be a stud or dud.
    "Flacco will never win a Super Bowl in my lifetime" - Lamarr Woodley, Squealers LB<-- what Flacco stares at before every game




  11. #3059

    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah W View Post
    We got to bring him home to Harm City. That is one sick highlight reel. Austin has Barry Sanders feet. That looked like Marshall Faulk SDst highlights, but the entire season highlight package, not just one game.

    He is still a RB at heart, but now he has WR game. I was looking at him more like a DeSean Jackson type, but he is much more physical like Percy Harvin. With all the picks we have I am now thinking trade up into the 20s to get Austin if he is still there.
    It would be neat.

    But does he really look like he fits our offense?

    Maybe my view is skewed after 4.75 years of Cam, but, where would Austin fit?

    He would takes screens away from Ray Rice. Ray Rice has similar shiftiness. We just paid him big $.

    With Caldwell we ran more slants, but that should be Boldin's area. Also, Austin can't rise up and power grab balls like Boldin does, and we saw that plenty of times in the playoffs.

    Don't get me wrong, he is very versatile and could really be something in the NFL. But for our particular team...I just don't know if he fits. If they want to take him and work him into the offense, I am all for it. But I just don't see the Ravens being a natural fit for this kid.

    Also, trading up in the first usually requires mortgaging another year's first as part of the deal. It would probably at minimum require our 2nd and 3rd round picks this year. And I think even that would not be enough to jump into the 20s. To go from 27 to 6 the Falcons had to give up:

    1st- (27th overall), second- (59th) and fourth-round (124th) picks in 2011 and their first- and fourth-round picks in 2012 (two 1sts, a 2nd and two 4s for 21 spots). Now moving from 32 to 20 would require less...but not that much less. I really don't see Ozzie making such a move.




  12. #3060
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    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    It would be neat.

    But does he really look like he fits our offense?

    Maybe my view is skewed after 4.75 years of Cam, but, where would Austin fit?

    He would takes screens away from Ray Rice. Ray Rice has similar shiftiness. We just paid him big $.

    With Caldwell we ran more slants, but that should be Boldin's area. Also, Austin can't rise up and power grab balls like Boldin does, and we saw that plenty of times in the playoffs.

    Don't get me wrong, he is very versatile and could really be something in the NFL. But for our particular team...I just don't know if he fits. If they want to take him and work him into the offense, I am all for it. But I just don't see the Ravens being a natural fit for this kid.

    Also, trading up in the first usually requires mortgaging another year's first as part of the deal. It would probably at minimum require our 2nd and 3rd round picks this year. And I think even that would not be enough to jump into the 20s. To go from 27 to 6 the Falcons had to give up:

    1st- (27th overall), second- (59th) and fourth-round (124th) picks in 2011 and their first- and fourth-round picks in 2012 (two 1sts, a 2nd and two 4s for 21 spots). Now moving from 32 to 20 would require less...but not that much less. I really don't see Ozzie making such a move.
    This is where you have to trust your board. It might not look like a clear cut spot for Austin now. However, we don't fully know how Caldwell will adapt his system to Joe Flacco. Anquan Boldin is 33. We don't know if he or Jones will be back. Doss is a decent prospect, as is Deonte Thompson.

    If there is an injury, he can fill in multiple roles: Returner, RB, Slot. You might even be able to slip him outside from time to time.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




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