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  1. #1825
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread



    I'm with jonboy on this one, saving 1.3 (the price to franchise tag someone as a ROFR) to use a rookie with promise, who can actually block would put us in better position, but that's just my opinion anyway. Dickson cannot catch shit either, he's ACTUALLY regressed from his rookie/sophomore years. Remember he started out his sophomore year with a bang? He looked like a pro bowl TE for christ sakes, I think somethings happened to that kid.




  2. #1826

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    I think you don't understand what Dickson's salary would be, jonboy. He is all but surely going to be given a round-of-draft tender which comes with a $1.2-$1.3mil price tag. A veteran minimum salary is roughly $900k. That's what Bajema made this past year. At the veteran minimum, the Ravens are going to get a barely-hanging-on-to-my-NFL-career guy like Bajema and nothing more. For $300-$400k more, I'd rather keep Dickson, who is one year removed from a 50 catch season and still has quite a bit of upside.

    I'm not a Dickson fan, but he's not as bad as some here like to state. If we had to go without Pitta for an extended period of time in 2013, would you really want two rookies or a rookie and Bajema as your two TEs? I think the sensible plan is to pay Dickson for one more year, resign Pitta long term, and then draft a 3rd TE this year who will be our #2 guy in 2014.
    This




  3. #1827
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    I'm with jonboy on this one, saving 1.3 (the price to franchise tag someone as a ROFR) to use a rookie with promise, who can actually block would put us in better position, but that's just my opinion anyway. Dickson cannot catch shit either, he's ACTUALLY regressed from his rookie/sophomore years. Remember he started out his sophomore year with a bang? He looked like a pro bowl TE for christ sakes, I think somethings happened to that kid.
    Dickson has been a horrible blocker this year. It will be interesting to see what Ozzie does. I'm hoping they can find a good blocking TE in the draft.




  4. #1828

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    I think you don't understand what Dickson's salary would be, jonboy. He is all but surely going to be given a round-of-draft tender which comes with a $1.2-$1.3mil price tag. A veteran minimum salary is roughly $900k. That's what Bajema made this past year. At the veteran minimum, the Ravens are going to get a barely-hanging-on-to-my-NFL-career guy like Bajema and nothing more. For $300-$400k more, I'd rather keep Dickson, who is one year removed from a 50 catch season and still has quite a bit of upside.

    I'm not a Dickson fan, but he's not as bad as some here like to state. If we had to go without Pitta for an extended period of time in 2013, would you really want two rookies or a rookie and Bajema as your two TEs? I think the sensible plan is to pay Dickson for one more year, resign Pitta long term, and then draft a 3rd TE this year who will be our #2 guy in 2014.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paintballguy View Post
    Yeah Dickson will be back for sure. He's still young and cheap with a lot of upside like you said.
    I get the point here, but it's going to be a decision of marginal value. We all seem to agree that the Ravens will very likely draft a TE this year due to the uncertainty of having no TEs on the roster under contract next year, although 2 are RFAs. So I would argue that Dickson's marginal cost shouldn't be compared to the veteran minimum but rather a mid-round pick--which is likely to be closer to 500k than 900k. Dickson's original-round tender will be 1.323m, by the way. So you're realistically talking about a 700-800k cap savings by replacing Dickson with a 3rd-5th round rookie.

    That sounds like an insignificant difference but every little bit counts. Moreover, Dickson has trade value--as you say, he does have upside and is young. The problem is the scheme fit for the Ravens as opposed to other teams. His role within our system is exactly the same as Pitta's: basically a slot wide receiver who is much less comfortable playing in-line and has marginal to no blocking ability. There is NO reason to put Dickson on the field right now other than to show the defense an unconventional look--this is the reason why Dickson has played so few snaps this season, combined with his injury. The Ravens have been MUCH more a 3-wide team in passing downs than a 2TE team this year.

    Obviously that was different last year when Dickson put up what on first glance appeared to be a very good year: 54 catches for 528 yards and 5 TDs. That sounds great, but place that within the context of what we had on offense last year... essentially no 3rd WR whatsoever and a receiving corps that struggled terribly to separate for various reasons. This year with a viable 3rd WR and a more imaginative and explosive passing game Dickson has been relegated to where he belongs at this point: the bench.

    The bottom line is that Dickson's value is significantly lower for the Ravens than it may be for other teams. Teams that want a WR-in-TE-body type of player would do well to get Dickson, and he could certainly start for some teams that use their TE like that on an every-down basis (Chip Kelly's Eagles, perhaps.) I just don't think he's anything more than an injury fill-in here for the Ravens and they'd do well to unload him in a trade.

    I will readily admit though that you can't dismiss what Dickson offers as an injury back-up. If the team feels having insurance for a Pitta injury is worth that much I wouldn't disagree with it, although I think the marginal value of potentially moving him for a draft pick and saving some money is higher.




  5. #1829

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    IMO LT i #1, even if we retain Big Mac short term.

    And TE is fairly important, especially IMO since Dickson should be non-tnedered/only tendered if they intend to trade him for a low round pick. He's not worth his tender salary to be used as a blocker first and foremost. His role can easily be fulfilled by a mid round pick or a journeyman vet at the minimum salary.
    What if you trade Dickson (save 1.3 Million and package one of our picks to say the Eagles to move up some draft slots to gain a better player in say the third or 4th round, we trade our 3rd for thier 3rd or our 4th for thier 4th.)? Then draft a REAL TE in Ertz or Eiffert (blocking and receiving TE's who are first round worthy? Then Dickson is expendable, and you have a TRUE all around TE for 4 years at low cost. Both those TE's are great value and provide an element we lack in the offense in both the passing game and run game. Plus saving Dickson's tender can basically allow you to sign your first round pick essentially for free the first year.




  6. #1830
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    I think well see him, but most likely in 4-3 sets as a DE. Frankly Kruger has been playing at a much much higher level lately so I dont see them removing him for Upshaw unless, as you suggest, for injury or possibly rest if our D is out there more than expected (hopefully not).
    I would just love to see the Ravens shift to a 4-3 front anyway.

    Sometimes you have to go with what you're dealt and unfortunately (but not really unfortunately), the better linebackers and pass rushers coming out of college right now are better fits for 4-3 fronts instead of 3-4 schemes.

    That's not to say that there aren't guys who don't or won't fit into a 3-4, but when you look at this draft, the best linebackers are guys like Khaseem Greene, Kevin Minter, Alec Ogletree, etc. Granted, those guys probably could be decent fits in the 3-4, but - just purely based on skillsets - are likely better suited for 4-3 fronts.
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  7. #1831
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by runrayrun27 View Post
    Where do you guys see Arthur Brown going? I'm really high on him as a replacement for Lewis. Could he drop to the second?
    I don't see him being an adequate replacement for Lewis. He is a good tackler, but in K-State's bowl game Oregon just completely shut him down. Brown couldn't get off of blockers well, he tried to run around blockers, he was late to the ball a lot.

    He has value, but I wouldn't take him before the 4th round.

    There are better linebackers.
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  8. #1832

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Paintballguy View Post
    Dickson has been a horrible blocker this year. It will be interesting to see what Ozzie does. I'm hoping they can find a good blocking TE in the draft.

    Ozzie knows TE's, since he has been here, we have had Sharpe, Heap and Pitta. I trust Ozzie in evaluating TE's, being one. We need a "true" TE running/blocking/receiving. Taking Ertz or Effiert would be a coup, I would trade up to get them if necessary. The teams ahead of us in the drafting order who made the playoffs already have a TE, except for Atlanta who will likely pick one of TG doesnt retire. The New NFL is TE freindly with rule changes.




  9. #1833
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    I think the positives of going to a 4-3 for us also negate our need for a NT, because Ngata would move into a 4-3 NT, while either McPhee or Art Jones/draft pick would slot in next to him on that 4 man front, then you could put Upshaw in as a LDE, and Suggs would assume the LDE role which is both their natural fits IMO anyway.




  10. #1834
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    I think you don't understand what Dickson's salary would be, jonboy. He is all but surely going to be given a round-of-draft tender which comes with a $1.2-$1.3mil price tag. A veteran minimum salary is roughly $900k. That's what Bajema made this past year. At the veteran minimum, the Ravens are going to get a barely-hanging-on-to-my-NFL-career guy like Bajema and nothing more. For $300-$400k more, I'd rather keep Dickson, who is one year removed from a 50 catch season and still has quite a bit of upside.

    I'm not a Dickson fan, but he's not as bad as some here like to state. If we had to go without Pitta for an extended period of time in 2013, would you really want two rookies or a rookie and Bajema as your two TEs? I think the sensible plan is to pay Dickson for one more year, resign Pitta long term, and then draft a 3rd TE this year who will be our #2 guy in 2014.
    Good post.
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  11. #1835
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    I'd rather have WIlliams from Alabama for a half million, give or take.

    Dickson, despite being asked to do so,is a terrible blocker with some of the msot questionable hands in the league. I don't see value at over a Million dollars. I'd rather have Brandon Manumaleuna or similar for $900k. If the Pat's don't retain Micahel Hoomanawanui, I'd MUCH rather have him for $600k or so


    And per the post above, I don't see much upside either. The guy jsut isn't very good. He's not close to a complete package. He's a guy that's too big and slow to be a WR, with a very limited skillset. His routes aren't great, his hands are terrible and he can't block much at all. He's fast for a TE, but that's about it.
    Why not both though? You know?

    Say we draft Williams and let Dickson walk. Pitta gets hurt. Then what?

    Williams is a solid TE...but probably not starter worth (he may get to that point eventually) and definitely not able to replicate what Pitta can do.

    If - and it is a BIG if - they do not tender Dickson, then they would almost be forcing their hand to spend a high draft pick on someone like Eiffert, Ertz, or Escobar. Now, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but it would kind of suck to have to pass on someone like Kevin Minter or Datone Jones because the Ravens have jack squat depth at TE.
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  12. #1836

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I would just love to see the Ravens shift to a 4-3 front anyway.

    Sometimes you have to go with what you're dealt and unfortunately (but not really unfortunately), the better linebackers and pass rushers coming out of college right now are better fits for 4-3 fronts instead of 3-4 schemes.

    That's not to say that there aren't guys who don't or won't fit into a 3-4, but when you look at this draft, the best linebackers are guys like Khaseem Greene, Kevin Minter, Alec Ogletree, etc. Granted, those guys probably could be decent fits in the 3-4, but - just purely based on skillsets - are likely better suited for 4-3 fronts.
    I've been beating this drum all year. We actually already have so much of the personnel to make it happen. Haloti Ngata would be perfect as a 4-3 nose tackle, we already know Suggs can play right DE very well, and Upshaw has actually played more with his hand in the dirt than at LB this year.

    As bad as our DL has been at times this year, with everybody healthy we have way more talent on the line than at 'backer. Ngata, Art Jones, McPhee, Suggs, Upshaw, DeAngelo Tyson... McAdoo and Hamilton were both DEs in college... that's the makings of a potentially really solid rotation on the DL in the 4-3.

    Another guy who fits really well is McClellan at 4-3 SAM. Somebody earlier said that McClellan hasn't been used enough this year and I agree. He was VERY good setting the edge and defending the short curl/flat zone earlier in the year. Ellerbe could be a great 4-3 MIKE if he's retained, and if he's not McClain and Bynes would battle it out for the spot. The big hole is 4-3 WILL... but there are so many guys in this draft who could step in on day 1 and have a Lavonte David type impact the WILL position.

    Khaseem Greene, Arthur Brown, Gerald Hodges, Sean Porter, Jelani Jenkins... all of them have a lot of upside at 4-3 WILL and would add a TON of speed to our defense.




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