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  1. #1816

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread



    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Well, that's not really something you can develop.

    You're either born with that or you aren't.

    However, what they can do is help him drop about 10lbs and get down into the mid 250's/low 260's, which will help him with his endurance. The second thing that they can do is help him develop more robust pass rushing moves.

    The rest is just him watching tape, getting with Suggs, and learning tendencies and how to set an offensive lineman up.
    i wouldnt say that its not something you cant work on, granted he clearly doesnt have the gift naturally so his ceiling for such is still going to be much lower. He drops some weight, hell be more explosive than he is, which is all im really trying to express. Hopefully that makes him a little more fluid in general. He does need to work on his repertoire. Getting with Suggs is the first step, which hopefully hes already done. If he can just learn how to jump the snap count as well as Suggs that would be a great advantage to him to overcome that lack of quick twitch.

    IIRC he struggled with weight this past offseason and couldnt drop weight easily. Its not guarantee that the teams gets him to where they want him. He is a large man naturally, ill give him that.
    Last edited by JAB1985; 01-31-2013 at 11:04 AM.
    -JAB




  2. #1817

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NC Raven View Post
    Agree -- Upshaw has clearly been sucked way out of position many times this season. He still needs a lot of work on setting the edge. I believe he can get there, but a rookie is a rookie. No comparison to what JJ did during the last however many seasons before. Not even close. JJ was a rock, a metronome you could set your watch to. Nobody got outside of him. Nobody broke big runs. Upshaw surely has more athletic upside, but the knowledge and experience are something he lacks at this point, as you would expect.

    For this game specifically, unless somebody gets hurt, I don't expect to see much of him. While Kruger also makes errors in edge setting, at least he's fast enough to help steer Kap in the general direction if he takes off. Upshaw would be totally overmatched if Kap got loose on his side.
    I think well see him, but most likely in 4-3 sets as a DE. Frankly Kruger has been playing at a much much higher level lately so I dont see them removing him for Upshaw unless, as you suggest, for injury or possibly rest if our D is out there more than expected (hopefully not).
    -JAB




  3. #1818

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Dont be surprised to see Paul Krugers brother drafted by us, he is climbing and a good DE prospect, He is bigger than Paul and alot like McPhee. Plus, that keeps you in good graces with his brother Paul who according to Utah athletic department are very close.

    Harewood will be kept, depth and insurance.
    David Reed might be too expensive with LeQuan able to do the same.
    Dickson depends on whom they draft, I expect them to draft a TE, with two hitting UFA in 2014.

    Ravens will be fine next year, plenty of talent. Every team loses a few players every year to replace them, natural turnover. It's been happening around here for 5 years if anyone has noticed.

    The ONLY player I see leaving without a doubt is Cary Williams, CB's with experience are at a price point premium, plus Ravens deep at the position.
    Leach looks like a cut with his limited use and cap figure.

    Not so fast on Birk, he played pretty well this year, has a low cap number next season and says he feels great,, best in years and knee isnt bothering him anymore and doesnt want to retire. He might be back. He has been outspoken about it.

    Flacco will work out a deal, pretty sure over 6 years to average out about 17-18 million per season. The guarenteed part will be the sticking point.

    Boldin might be extended a year or released, plenty of WR's on the FA market as well. Boldin really is a slot guy, got lucky Talib was hurt or he would of been shut down. 7 Mlillion is alot for a slot WR. They could also extend Jones if they wanted a few years, he is young. Ravens have options at their disposal.




  4. #1819
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    Whatever happens here are our team needs in order.

    (Assuming, Leach, Jacoby, Birk, Williams, retire/cut. Also assuming Reed, Kruger, and Kemoeatu are the key FAs that aren't retained. Finally it is assuming that Flacco gets franchise tagged, while McKinnie and Ellerbe are re-signed. Boldin and Oher get contract extensions, while Suggs and Ngata have contract restructures.)

    Top team needs:
    1. Safety (Immediate starter needed)
    2. NT (Upgrade over Cody needed)
    3. TE (An immediate starter next to Pitta needed)
    4. ILB (An upgrade over Jameel McClain/McClellan/Bynes needed next to Ellerbe)
    5. OT (A future replacement at LT needed for McKinnie)
    6. DE (Someone to push Art Jones, and McPhee for a starting place next season)
    7. WR (Someone to push Tandon Doss for the #3 WR posistion next season)
    8. KR/PR (Someone to push Deonte Thompson, Asa Jackson, and Tandon Doss for that job next season.)
    9. OG/OC (Someone to push Gino for the starting posistion at C next season, depth either way is needed.)
    10. FB (Someone to replace the cut Leach, but will only be used in sub packages in Caldwells new installed offense.)
    11. CB (Depth needed, insurance may be required if Webb isn't the same.)
    12. OLB (Depth behind Upshaw and Suggs needed.)
    13. QB (Someone to push Tyrod Taylor for the back up QB job next season.)
    14. HB (An upgrade or competition is required for the #3 RB job next season.)
    Overall a good, well-thought-out post.

    I would move your #5 (left tackle) up to #2. IMO, Cody's ineptitude isn't as big of a deal now that Jones seems to be getting snaps all over the D-line. I agree that getting a capable 3rd TE is important, but wouldn't rank it as our #3 priority. Also, if we went into 2013 with Ellerbe and McClellan as our two starters with McClain, 2nd-4th round rookie, and Bynes as our backups, I wouldn't be upset. I think McClellan has earned more snaps than he actually gets. Every time we've counted on him to start, he's done decently. Bynes impressed me as well.




  5. #1820

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    Overall a good, well-thought-out post.

    I would move your #5 (left tackle) up to #2. IMO, Cody's ineptitude isn't as big of a deal now that Jones seems to be getting snaps all over the D-line. I agree that getting a capable 3rd TE is important, but wouldn't rank it as our #3 priority. Also, if we went into 2013 with Ellerbe and McClellan as our two starters with McClain, 2nd-4th round rookie, and Bynes as our backups, I wouldn't be upset. I think McClellan has earned more snaps than he actually gets. Every time we've counted on him to start, he's done decently. Bynes impressed me as well.

    IMO LT i #1, even if we retain Big Mac short term.

    And TE is fairly important, especially IMO since Dickson should be non-tnedered/only tendered if they intend to trade him for a low round pick. He's not worth his tender salary to be used as a blocker first and foremost. His role can easily be fulfilled by a mid round pick or a journeyman vet at the minimum salary.




  6. #1821

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Where do you guys see Arthur Brown going? I'm really high on him as a replacement for Lewis. Could he drop to the second?




  7. #1822
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    IMO LT i #1, even if we retain Big Mac short term.

    And TE is fairly important, especially IMO since Dickson should be non-tnedered/only tendered if they intend to trade him for a low round pick. He's not worth his tender salary to be used as a blocker first and foremost. His role can easily be fulfilled by a mid round pick or a journeyman vet at the minimum salary.
    I think you don't understand what Dickson's salary would be, jonboy. He is all but surely going to be given a round-of-draft tender which comes with a $1.2-$1.3mil price tag. A veteran minimum salary is roughly $900k. That's what Bajema made this past year. At the veteran minimum, the Ravens are going to get a barely-hanging-on-to-my-NFL-career guy like Bajema and nothing more. For $300-$400k more, I'd rather keep Dickson, who is one year removed from a 50 catch season and still has quite a bit of upside.

    I'm not a Dickson fan, but he's not as bad as some here like to state. If we had to go without Pitta for an extended period of time in 2013, would you really want two rookies or a rookie and Bajema as your two TEs? I think the sensible plan is to pay Dickson for one more year, resign Pitta long term, and then draft a 3rd TE this year who will be our #2 guy in 2014.




  8. #1823
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    I think you don't understand what Dickson's salary would be, jonboy. He is all but surely going to be given a round-of-draft tender which comes with a $1.2-$1.3mil price tag. A veteran minimum salary is roughly $900k. That's what Bajema made this past year. At the veteran minimum, the Ravens are going to get a barely-hanging-on-to-my-NFL-career guy like Bajema and nothing more. For $300-$400k more, I'd rather keep Dickson, who is one year removed from a 50 catch season and still has quite a bit of upside.

    I'm not a Dickson fan, but he's not as bad as some here like to state. If we had to go without Pitta for an extended period of time in 2013, would you really want two rookies or a rookie and Bajema as your two TEs? I think the sensible plan is to pay Dickson for one more year, resign Pitta long term, and then draft a 3rd TE this year who will be our #2 guy in 2014.
    Yeah Dickson will be back for sure. He's still young and cheap with a lot of upside like you said.




  9. #1824

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    I think you don't understand what Dickson's salary would be, jonboy. He is all but surely going to be given a round-of-draft tender which comes with a $1.2-$1.3mil price tag. A veteran minimum salary is roughly $900k. That's what Bajema made this past year. At the veteran minimum, the Ravens are going to get a barely-hanging-on-to-my-NFL-career guy like Bajema and nothing more. For $300-$400k more, I'd rather keep Dickson, who is one year removed from a 50 catch season and still has quite a bit of upside.

    I'm not a Dickson fan, but he's not as bad as some here like to state. If we had to go without Pitta for an extended period of time in 2013, would you really want two rookies or a rookie and Bajema as your two TEs? I think the sensible plan is to pay Dickson for one more year, resign Pitta long term, and then draft a 3rd TE this year who will be our #2 guy in 2014.

    I'd rather have WIlliams from Alabama for a half million, give or take.

    Dickson, despite being asked to do so,is a terrible blocker with some of the msot questionable hands in the league. I don't see value at over a Million dollars. I'd rather have Brandon Manumaleuna or similar for $900k. If the Pat's don't retain Micahel Hoomanawanui, I'd MUCH rather have him for $600k or so


    And per the post above, I don't see much upside either. The guy jsut isn't very good. He's not close to a complete package. He's a guy that's too big and slow to be a WR, with a very limited skillset. His routes aren't great, his hands are terrible and he can't block much at all. He's fast for a TE, but that's about it.




  10. #1825
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    I'm with jonboy on this one, saving 1.3 (the price to franchise tag someone as a ROFR) to use a rookie with promise, who can actually block would put us in better position, but that's just my opinion anyway. Dickson cannot catch shit either, he's ACTUALLY regressed from his rookie/sophomore years. Remember he started out his sophomore year with a bang? He looked like a pro bowl TE for christ sakes, I think somethings happened to that kid.




  11. #1826

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    I think you don't understand what Dickson's salary would be, jonboy. He is all but surely going to be given a round-of-draft tender which comes with a $1.2-$1.3mil price tag. A veteran minimum salary is roughly $900k. That's what Bajema made this past year. At the veteran minimum, the Ravens are going to get a barely-hanging-on-to-my-NFL-career guy like Bajema and nothing more. For $300-$400k more, I'd rather keep Dickson, who is one year removed from a 50 catch season and still has quite a bit of upside.

    I'm not a Dickson fan, but he's not as bad as some here like to state. If we had to go without Pitta for an extended period of time in 2013, would you really want two rookies or a rookie and Bajema as your two TEs? I think the sensible plan is to pay Dickson for one more year, resign Pitta long term, and then draft a 3rd TE this year who will be our #2 guy in 2014.
    This




  12. #1827
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    I'm with jonboy on this one, saving 1.3 (the price to franchise tag someone as a ROFR) to use a rookie with promise, who can actually block would put us in better position, but that's just my opinion anyway. Dickson cannot catch shit either, he's ACTUALLY regressed from his rookie/sophomore years. Remember he started out his sophomore year with a bang? He looked like a pro bowl TE for christ sakes, I think somethings happened to that kid.
    Dickson has been a horrible blocker this year. It will be interesting to see what Ozzie does. I'm hoping they can find a good blocking TE in the draft.




  13. #1828

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    I think you don't understand what Dickson's salary would be, jonboy. He is all but surely going to be given a round-of-draft tender which comes with a $1.2-$1.3mil price tag. A veteran minimum salary is roughly $900k. That's what Bajema made this past year. At the veteran minimum, the Ravens are going to get a barely-hanging-on-to-my-NFL-career guy like Bajema and nothing more. For $300-$400k more, I'd rather keep Dickson, who is one year removed from a 50 catch season and still has quite a bit of upside.

    I'm not a Dickson fan, but he's not as bad as some here like to state. If we had to go without Pitta for an extended period of time in 2013, would you really want two rookies or a rookie and Bajema as your two TEs? I think the sensible plan is to pay Dickson for one more year, resign Pitta long term, and then draft a 3rd TE this year who will be our #2 guy in 2014.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paintballguy View Post
    Yeah Dickson will be back for sure. He's still young and cheap with a lot of upside like you said.
    I get the point here, but it's going to be a decision of marginal value. We all seem to agree that the Ravens will very likely draft a TE this year due to the uncertainty of having no TEs on the roster under contract next year, although 2 are RFAs. So I would argue that Dickson's marginal cost shouldn't be compared to the veteran minimum but rather a mid-round pick--which is likely to be closer to 500k than 900k. Dickson's original-round tender will be 1.323m, by the way. So you're realistically talking about a 700-800k cap savings by replacing Dickson with a 3rd-5th round rookie.

    That sounds like an insignificant difference but every little bit counts. Moreover, Dickson has trade value--as you say, he does have upside and is young. The problem is the scheme fit for the Ravens as opposed to other teams. His role within our system is exactly the same as Pitta's: basically a slot wide receiver who is much less comfortable playing in-line and has marginal to no blocking ability. There is NO reason to put Dickson on the field right now other than to show the defense an unconventional look--this is the reason why Dickson has played so few snaps this season, combined with his injury. The Ravens have been MUCH more a 3-wide team in passing downs than a 2TE team this year.

    Obviously that was different last year when Dickson put up what on first glance appeared to be a very good year: 54 catches for 528 yards and 5 TDs. That sounds great, but place that within the context of what we had on offense last year... essentially no 3rd WR whatsoever and a receiving corps that struggled terribly to separate for various reasons. This year with a viable 3rd WR and a more imaginative and explosive passing game Dickson has been relegated to where he belongs at this point: the bench.

    The bottom line is that Dickson's value is significantly lower for the Ravens than it may be for other teams. Teams that want a WR-in-TE-body type of player would do well to get Dickson, and he could certainly start for some teams that use their TE like that on an every-down basis (Chip Kelly's Eagles, perhaps.) I just don't think he's anything more than an injury fill-in here for the Ravens and they'd do well to unload him in a trade.

    I will readily admit though that you can't dismiss what Dickson offers as an injury back-up. If the team feels having insurance for a Pitta injury is worth that much I wouldn't disagree with it, although I think the marginal value of potentially moving him for a draft pick and saving some money is higher.




  14. #1829

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    IMO LT i #1, even if we retain Big Mac short term.

    And TE is fairly important, especially IMO since Dickson should be non-tnedered/only tendered if they intend to trade him for a low round pick. He's not worth his tender salary to be used as a blocker first and foremost. His role can easily be fulfilled by a mid round pick or a journeyman vet at the minimum salary.
    What if you trade Dickson (save 1.3 Million and package one of our picks to say the Eagles to move up some draft slots to gain a better player in say the third or 4th round, we trade our 3rd for thier 3rd or our 4th for thier 4th.)? Then draft a REAL TE in Ertz or Eiffert (blocking and receiving TE's who are first round worthy? Then Dickson is expendable, and you have a TRUE all around TE for 4 years at low cost. Both those TE's are great value and provide an element we lack in the offense in both the passing game and run game. Plus saving Dickson's tender can basically allow you to sign your first round pick essentially for free the first year.




  15. #1830
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    I think well see him, but most likely in 4-3 sets as a DE. Frankly Kruger has been playing at a much much higher level lately so I dont see them removing him for Upshaw unless, as you suggest, for injury or possibly rest if our D is out there more than expected (hopefully not).
    I would just love to see the Ravens shift to a 4-3 front anyway.

    Sometimes you have to go with what you're dealt and unfortunately (but not really unfortunately), the better linebackers and pass rushers coming out of college right now are better fits for 4-3 fronts instead of 3-4 schemes.

    That's not to say that there aren't guys who don't or won't fit into a 3-4, but when you look at this draft, the best linebackers are guys like Khaseem Greene, Kevin Minter, Alec Ogletree, etc. Granted, those guys probably could be decent fits in the 3-4, but - just purely based on skillsets - are likely better suited for 4-3 fronts.
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